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  #1  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:12 AM
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OK... defining terms might be fun on a writing forum.

Love, how is it defined, what is it, what is it not? Does everyone deserve it? Can it be helped or does the heart want what the heart wants? Is there a rub between the conceptual and the biological?

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Old 10-26-2017, 11:27 AM
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What is looooooooove, anyway?
Does anybody love anybody anyway?

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Old 10-26-2017, 11:57 AM
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What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:54 PM
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("...love changes with the season of one's life, where spring is hot, summer is family, autumn is hobbies, and winter is letting go..." ventured the goblin as he saw it, adding "...winter is where one let's go those things one loves for their sakes even...")

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Old 10-26-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
OK... defining terms might be fun on a writing forum.

Love, how is it defined, what is it, what is it not? Does everyone deserve it? Can it be helped or does the heart want what the heart wants? Is there a rub between the conceptual and the biological?
"Love" is what is usually given as the answer at the end of most movies, comics etc as to the solution of the problem, ergo, the answer is "love", not infinitesimal calculus, but don't try this on a maths test.
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Old 10-26-2017, 06:41 PM
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Years ago I tried to make a definition of love that encompassed all aspects of it, and I think I got close:

Love is the expansion of the sense of self to encompass another.

All those things we would want for ourselves we want for our loved one: happiness, success, avoidance of pain, hardship, suffering... When our loved one is upset we become upset. When they're smiling we feel more like smiling. When we're in love we feel expansive, as if we're having twice the emotions, twice the depth of experience, and this is because we've included the experiences of another within the conceptual framework of our own. We share our resources, our feelings, the entirety of our experience.

Sometimes we might consider the person we love to be our "better half", so we've not only come to recognize them as part of ourself, but a better part.

Now extend this concept to someone like the Buddha, who professed to love everything - his sense of self would have been all-inclusive which, somewhat paradoxically, would be very nearly the same thing as having no sense of self at all. If you have no sense of self you do not distinguish yourself from anything else, and if your sense of self includes everything you do not distinguish yourself from anything else. The only difference is that the encompassing self is maybe conscious (I'm not sure about this point yet), whereas someone with no sense of self would not be.

If things like Buddhist Nirvana and spiritual enlightenment are real phenomena I tend to think one's progress toward them is gained by expansion of the sense of self to include others. Once you include all things in your sense of self you will do no worse to anything else than you would to yourself, and you will do no worse to yourself than you would do to another.

For me there's something satisfying about this whole process. It's reflective of the circle of life in that we begin as babies devoid of a sense of self, and if we can attain to enlightenment we return to that state. Almost poetic.
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:00 PM
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Love is just the biology and chemistry that drives our reproductive and nurturing component. At least that's what I tell my wife when she's getting all carried away.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
Years ago I tried to make a definition of love that encompassed all aspects of it, and I think I got close:

Love is the expansion of the sense of self to encompass another.

All those things we would want for ourselves we want for our loved one: happiness, success, avoidance of pain, hardship, suffering... When our loved one is upset we become upset. When they're smiling we feel more like smiling. When we're in love we feel expansive, as if we're having twice the emotions, twice the depth of experience, and this is because we've included the experiences of another within the conceptual framework of our own. We share our resources, our feelings, the entirety of our experience.

Sometimes we might consider the person we love to be our "better half", so we've not only come to recognize them as part of ourself, but a better part.

Now extend this concept to someone like the Buddha, who professed to love everything - his sense of self would have been all-inclusive which, somewhat paradoxically, would be very nearly the same thing as having no sense of self at all. If you have no sense of self you do not distinguish yourself from anything else, and if your sense of self includes everything you do not distinguish yourself from anything else. The only difference is that the encompassing self is maybe conscious (I'm not sure about this point yet), whereas someone with no sense of self would not be.

If things like Buddhist Nirvana and spiritual enlightenment are real phenomena I tend to think one's progress toward them is gained by expansion of the sense of self to include others. Once you include all things in your sense of self you will do no worse to anything else than you would to yourself, and you will do no worse to yourself than you would do to another.

For me there's something satisfying about this whole process. It's reflective of the circle of life in that we begin as babies devoid of a sense of self, and if we can attain to enlightenment we return to that state. Almost poetic.









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Old 10-26-2017, 11:19 PM
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"Let go of the raft"

Not sure what you mean.
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:28 PM
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no self - know self

it’s not important what I mean by it but what it becomes to mean for you




btw I enjoy everybody’s posts immensely - love to flea
it’s got very busy for me right now
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:20 AM
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reposts from Empathy thread:

Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Very few people are incapable of love actually when you look at it in percentages, but yeah psychopaths are out there- I think they say 1% of the population is.
Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Emotions are like parallel lines that do not cross but exist at the same time. Your anger will never be sadness, your sadness will never be happiness, your love will never be hate but... you can laugh when you are sad, you can hate someone you love, you can empathize with someone who disgusts you, you can be in love with your partner but lust after others... the list goes on and on.

Negatives and postives both exist in separate charges. Negative emotions all connect with one another, as do positive ones.
This second one really drills down into the problem of defining love only by its ideal conception. It is philosophically sound to say that a thing can never be its opposite. Love cannot be hate. We might be able to say love is an amalgam of things such as trust, honour and respect? But, I imagine Socrates asking something like this:

'Say your child is a heroin addict, circumstances dictate that you cannot trust them, but naturally you still love them. Now you have two seemingly incompatible parallels, ie: love and distrust. Now these might 'not cross but exist at the same time' the question then is whether distrust invalidates love? If not then it proves the possibility for relationships to be at once toxic and loving... which is problematic but in my experience true. If one does invalidate the other then we're back to a significant amount of human relationships lacking love altogether. And pure love, if you will, being very rare.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
reposts from Empathy thread:





This second one really drills down into the problem of defining love only by its ideal conception. It is philosophically sound to say that a thing can never be its opposite. Love cannot be hate. We might be able to say love is an amalgam of things such as trust, honour and respect? But, I imagine Socrates asking something like this:

'Say your child is a heroin addict, circumstances dictate that you cannot trust them, but naturally you still love them. Now you have two seemingly incompatible parallels, ie: love and distrust. Now these might 'not cross but exist at the same time' the question then is whether distrust invalidates love? If not then it proves the possibility for relationships to be at once toxic and loving... which is problematic but in my experience true. If one does invalidate the other then we're back to a significant amount of human relationships lacking love altogether. And pure love, if you will, being very rare.
You sneaking bastard.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:38 AM
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Lol jk JC... maybe.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
reposts from Empathy thread:





This second one really drills down into the problem of defining love only by its ideal conception. It is philosophically sound to say that a thing can never be its opposite. Love cannot be hate. We might be able to say love is an amalgam of things such as trust, honour and respect? But, I imagine Socrates asking something like this:

'Say your child is a heroin addict, circumstances dictate that you cannot trust them, but naturally you still love them. Now you have two seemingly incompatible parallels, ie: love and distrust. Now these might 'not cross but exist at the same time' the question then is whether distrust invalidates love? If not then it proves the possibility for relationships to be at once toxic and loving... which is problematic but in my experience true. If one does invalidate the other then we're back to a significant amount of human relationships lacking love altogether. And pure love, if you will, being very rare.
Explain to me what hatred is.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:56 AM
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Better yet JC, explain how my hatred of someone can also somehow be love for them and I mean someone I hate just for how they look and I have had no personal encounters with.

And what about like or dislike? maybe if you are in a toxic relationship maybe at the most you really like that person but other emotions you have make you unable to truly love them.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Explain to me what hatred is.
Oh well we might need a new threat

But we could start with extremely negative feelings towards a group, an individual, or a thing. Characterised by things like anger, disdain, contempt. You certainly have to 'care' about whatever it is you hate, which is why you hear 'it's a thin line between love and hate' in popular culture. I can't hate that which I don't care about. Like I couldn't hate tartar sauce... and anyone who does should probably figure out what's important in life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7TzJezL07s


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Old 10-27-2017, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
Better yet JC, explain how my hatred of someone can also somehow be love for them and I mean someone I hate just for how they look and I have had no personal encounters with.

And what about like or dislike? maybe if you are in a toxic relationship maybe at the most you really like that person but other emotions you have make you unable to truly love them.
I don't think you can love someone and hate them at the same time, I'd draw a line there. You might think you love them, or think you hate them, but not both. But people in love can be toxic for each other for a variety of reasons.

Think of this section of society who are perhaps incapable of 'pure' love. How many are broken? How many have had love mapped out for them by their parents in horrendous ways? You might ask why they act so crazy, well their parents might have been crazy, their ex partners might have been crazy, love for them is messy and hurtful -- so they feel the genuine biological responses of love but interpret that as danger leading to something quite dysfunctional.

For me most relationships are like this on some level, I guess there's a degree of dysfunction somewhere which switches from love to just emotional attachment. It's highly subjective as to where that point lies within the spectrum...

Some people will swear it's love even when they beat on each other on a regular basis.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:18 AM
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You do know just because they have a saying for something it doesn't make it true. There is far more than a thin line between love and hatred. The care required to hate someone is different then the caring involved when you like or even love someone. Do you know that in some hate groups they strive to feel pure hatred, and that there are ways you have to prove you truly actually hate someone. I was wrong, I have never felt hatred towards anyone I love, I think like every other human on this planet I have the habit of being dramatic and going for the big gun words because I'm lazy, but there are a bucket full of words to choose from to describe how you feel when you are mad at someone you love and hate is a very exaggerated one.

Can you tell me the difference between an emotion and feelings?
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:23 AM
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I honestly think we all have it wrong and the only way to get it right is to take small fractions of each of our arguments and put them together. I'm an asshole and won't ever change so will go out on a limb and say: you are more wrong than me, and we should take more of my argument into consideration because I am better than you in every way lol!
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
I don't think you can love someone and hate them at the same time, I'd draw a line there. You might think you love them, or think you hate them, but not both. But people in love can be toxic for each other for a variety of reasons.

Think of this section of society who are perhaps incapable of 'pure' love. How many are broken? How many have had love mapped out for them by their parents in horrendous ways? You might ask why they act so crazy, well their parents might have been crazy, their ex partners might have been crazy, love for them is messy and hurtful -- so they feel the genuine biological responses of love but interpret that as danger leading to something quite dysfunctional.

For me most relationships are like this on some level, I guess there's a degree of dysfunction somewhere which switches from love to just emotional attachment. It's highly subjective as to where that point lies within the spectrum...

Some people will swear it's love even when they beat on each other on a regular basis.
Maybe... It is all interesting to consider but I need to tap out and get back to working on my book. I like you JC as a person and wish you all the best. I might come back to the table and hash it out with you again, but you have exhausted me, you butthole.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
You do know just because they have a saying for something it doesn't make it true. There is far more than a thin line between love and hatred. The care required to hate someone is different then the caring involved when you like or even love someone. Do you know that in some hate groups they strive to feel pure hatred, and that there are ways you have to prove you truly actually hate someone. I was wrong, I have never felt hatred towards anyone I love, I think like every other human on this planet I have the habit of being dramatic and going for the big gun words because I'm lazy, but there are a bucket full of words to choose from to describe how you feel when you are mad at someone you love and hate is a very exaggerated one.

Can you tell me the difference between an emotion and feelings?
I'd concur and say I've never hated someone I've loved. I don't think that's possible.

I'd see emotions as hormonal, chemical responses and our feelings as how we experience and interpret them, they are locked into a feedback loop as how we interpret our feelings will generate further emotions on a chemical level, ie: you are what you think.

So you feel love on a biological level, attraction, some stirring in the loins if it's romantic, some emotional attachment, some intellectual stimulation, and this might signify to be on guard, or to be happy, or to be afraid, how you interpret and respond to the more involuntary aspects of the biological state will then dictate how it manifests.

I know for example that when my children were born I was filled with a natural love for them which is obviously a natural, instinctive, primordial, evolutionary type thing... but then you feel it and freak out because it's scary, you gotta fight that off and let the love flow so to speak. OK I'm getting mushy but there it is.
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:05 AM
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"...naah, love is different things to different people..." ventured the goblin, adding "...like it's just up there with the likes of god, ghosts, and those headaches too...", simply to the goblin love was all subjective then, either one experienced it knowing what it was without being able to explain it really, or one didn't experience it where words proved or disproved nothing for one inexperience, at which point the goblin just confided something saying "...well, actually I love my coffee, though maybe not quite as much as donald trump loves using the media now, ah but I'm working at it, so wish me luck now..."

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Old 10-27-2017, 05:19 AM
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You've got to...
Give a little love
Take a little love
Be prepared to forsake a little love
And when the sun comes shining thru
You'll know what to do.

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Old 10-27-2017, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
For me there's something satisfying about this whole process. It's reflective of the circle of life in that we begin as babies devoid of a sense of self, and if we can attain to enlightenment we return to that state. Almost poetic.
I think it's useful -- sometimes you gotta destroy the ego to let go of all that constant 'why me' stuff which is really annoying. Buddhism is about ending suffering, and suffering is the sum of all the bad things which happens (happened) to me as a person, but if I lose me as a person, or lose that solipsistic focal point, I lose the suffering attached to those things. Practically speaking I'm not the type to really try and lose myself as a person, but I can meditate on the concept as a therapeautic exercise.

“To the dumb question "Why me?" the cosmos barely bothers to return the reply: why not?”

― Christopher Hitchens, Mortality
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:59 AM
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OK OK I got one...

I wanna know what loooove iiiiiiisss... I want you to shoooooww meeeeee...

-- Foreigner
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:50 AM
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What's love got to do, got to do with it?

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Old 10-28-2017, 07:36 AM
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Old 10-29-2017, 01:22 PM
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("...found it..." went the goblin who had been reminded of a song he had heard in this childhood while on this topic of love then, which together with the beatles "hey jude" must have been the two tracks he had played to death on a small portable record player in his bedroom, though the month, perhaps months even, is a blur now, just that london has four months of winter followed by six months of indecision on its part, same track for sure but it didn't sound like it did back then, so the goblin listened in and recalled it's bitter sweetness, and then snapping out of it he closed the tab abruptly, saying "...just pay respects and walk away, for it's nothing like today, moreover my parents are long dead, the old house is sold on, even the country is left there too, ah no, nothing there for me now, so I repeat what I said before that in wintertime "love" is all about letting go lest one becomes like a ghost haunting one's past for something that won't ever return, naah I'm not a ghost like that, well not yet anyway, but the temptation to cling back becoming like that ghost is ever there within me still, so instead I render unto dailylife its met price of conformity, while taking from this internet here that form that most suits my nature now...")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4gMty-rV5Q

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Old 10-30-2017, 06:10 PM
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Love is the willingness to be disappointed.
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Old 10-31-2017, 12:00 AM
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