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Gender Fluidity and Linguistic Grounding

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  #31  
Old 10-24-2017, 06:08 PM
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@L&L Well yes I dont think it affects you. The same way that the Las Vegas shooting affects neither me nor you except in the most inadvertent of ways. The same way that a feller shot dead in Sudan affects neither of us. We can say that it does but that does not make it so.

You could make the argument that because you hold it dear to heart it informs your psychological atmosphere but thats the absolute horizon of it.

Funny story. I was couch surfing in Montreal a few years back with a friend and our hosts take us to china town and as were walking along this sable skinned gentleman of odious aroma starts to walk alongside us speaking in his demotic French to us words we cannot comprehend. He holds a bag and someone runs up beside him and slaps the bag out of his hand and out spills shaving razors and socks and a man atop a pyramidal hill shouts Africa!

At this our intrepid expat erranded upon the collection of his wares and we all walk along and we ask our hosts what it was our colored hobo was saying and they reply that he wanted money. A mendicant then, said I.

No, said Kevin. He wanted to rob you.

Edit: You live in Canada, are you Canadian? If so why care about what state people live in?


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Old 10-24-2017, 06:20 PM
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:20 PM
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If people want to cut their penis off, it is their body, so I say let them. I don't agree with it because I don't know what's going on in their head and quite frankly it isn't my buisness.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
.
But at the end of the day who cares what you think? My experiences are uniquely my own.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:23 PM
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I fully agree but I dont wish to pay for the lopping off of the pahllus for the same reason I dont wish to pay for its ensured erection, neither is life threatening.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:26 PM
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No your experiences are not uniquely your own. Youve shared them with every person with whom youve ever interacted. Every thought youve ever had of someone you have in some way shared. Every thought youve had about an object that was shaded by another's opinion is a moment of communion with mankind.

But seriously why care about the conditions of those in the states? Why not care about the people at home in Canada? Thats an earnest question.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:27 PM
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Why care what state people live in?

This explains a lot about the world we live in. Who cares if people away from me are struggling or if he ocean is becoming more full of plastic and junk, I don't live by the ocean. I don't get that attitude, the world is tiny!
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:29 PM
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No it doesnt explain anything. Give what I said the charitable reading. Why do you care what happens in the US as opposed to Canada, at the least the country of your residence? Why try to fix someone else's house when presumably there are things you can fix in your own?
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
No your experiences are not uniquely your own. Youve shared them with every person with whom youve ever interacted. Every thought youve ever had of someone you have in some way shared. Every thought youve had about an object that was shaded by another's opinion is a moment of communion with mankind.

But seriously why care about the conditions of those in the states? Why not care about the people at home in Canada? Thats an earnest question.
When i say my exoeriences are uniquely my own I mean things affect me in a way that fits who I am and how I see the world. When I read a tragedy I don't detach from it, I am not naive, I know it can happen to me or someone i care about.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
No it doesnt explain anything. Give what I said the charitable reading. Why do you care what happens in the US as opposed to Canada, at the least the country of your residence? Why try to fix someone else's house when presumably there are things you can fix in your own?
Lol why can't I care about both? American patriotism in action right there.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
When i say my exoeriences are uniquely my own I mean things affect me in a way that fits who I am and how I see the world. When I read a tragedy I don't detach from it, I am not naive, I know it can happen to me or someone i care about.
With all due respect that position isnt exactly profound. Tragedy defines life. It might well be argued that suffering is the one constant in human affairs. It is not that it may happen but when and in what form and why.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:34 PM
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America first. God bless America and nowhere else. That isn't usually the Candian way man. I can care about issues here and everywhere else - all at the same time. It isn't hard, give it a go.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@eri John has a point about people gravitating towards ideological fads that give a sense of belonging and I think whats getting in the way of understanding on both sides is the terminology. Now heres the thing thats important to keep in mind. Oppression as its understood in this debate is regional. A trans person in Seattle is not oppressed. They have access to hormonal treatment, sex change surgery is not frowned upon, they are insulated from criticism and have numerous social support options. A trans person in Texas will have a different story to tell.
If John was talking about specific enclaves he never made that clear. He made a sweeping generalisation. I fully understand that there are always going to be pockets of contradictory evidence against any a generalisation, so I'm not criticising the use of a generalisation in saying that. It's very nearly impossible to say anything sociologically without generalising.

I live in Australia, so I can't vouch for how open minded people are in Seattle, but I suspect trans people are not as perfectly accepted as you imply. Look at John and yourself: I consider you both to be intelligent, reasonable, and open minded people from the posts I've read, and yet you both believe trans people are making up their identity in order to gain some kind of victim kudos. So even intelligent, reasonable, and open-minded people refuse to accept the identity of transsexuals.

If no one believed a core part of your identity, continually saying "you're just 'putting it on'" and you encountered these people every single day I'm pretty sure your quality of life would suffer for it. How can you socially integrate with people who openly disbelieve who you claim to be? I don't think it would be easy. How would you feel if most people you interacted with disbelieved your (I'm guessing) heterosexual self-identification?

Are you sure someone is going to willingly give up harmonious social integration just to score some victim points? No doubt it happens, but it would be rare, and anyone who is so messed up they feel the need to do that is probably in a pretty unfortunate place and deserves compassion rather than denigration.

[QUOTE]Now keeping that in mind a fundamentalist Christian might feel very well at home in Houston but put them in Portland and theyre going to feel out of place.

So what I see is when the left says theyre oppressed the right says theyre persecuted. And how many times have you seen Christians bemoan the ever ongoing war on Christmas or the erosion of Christian values? In the same way that they try to portray themselves as martyrs for a cause the SJWs and the activist trans seek to be identified as victims and oppressed. Now when John says he thinks its cool what I think he may mean (and correct me if Im wrong John, sing us a song John, let us begin John, let the Satan flow through you John ) is that there is solidarity and purpose in suffering and people desire both.
[QUOTE]
I accept that you've specifically named "activist trans" when you say they seek to be identified as victims, and that this may be true of a decent portion of that demographic, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that's a trend that extends throughout the entire trans community. Just as with any minority demographic, there will be a select few who feel as if they have been victimised, and become activists (though not all activists are victims), but that doesn't mean every trans-person believes they are a victim. You're taking the most vocal and far-left segment of a wider community and using it to create generalisations concerning the community in its entirety. It's an easy trap to fall into.

I bring this up because (and forgive me I know Im beating a dead horse but Im hoping this adds a little to my point) is that people require boundaries and groups with which to affiliate themselves and that the violation of those boundaries is cause for violence whether rational or irrational.
What we have today is a culture that celebrates immaturity, and this drives a lot of what, as far as I can tell, you have an issue with (sorry for presuming to know your opinion). If I'm right I consider you to have a reasonable objection, but this pattern has happened before and it will happen again.

When a person is born their genetics are half of each of their parents (ignoring epigenetics for brevity). Experience shapes the genetic development and neurological patterns, but when you're a baby you have no say in your experience - it is chosen for you. At some stage in your development you come to unconsciously realise that all that is "you" was put there by those around you, and you want independence from it. You want to become a distinct person instead of a part of other people. So you rebel, you seek an identity that is yours alone. This is a natural process of maturation, but society today celebrates it, giving rise to a culture of continuing and deepening immaturity.

People are exposed to a wider array of influences through technology and media these days, so when it comes time to forge an identity distinct from their influences so far, some young people feel the need to seek an extreme form of individual identity. So you get things like goths in the 90s and punks in the 70s - I'm very nearly a hermit (only talk to another human in person for 45mins a week) so I'm not really sure what rebellious things the youth of today are up to. Each generation wants to distinguish itself from the previous one, which is exactly what drives generational changes in linguistics.

There might well be a small fraction of transsexuals who are just searching for an identity, but given that there are physical differences in the brains of transsexuals compared to standard gender-identifying persons I'd put my money on the hard science rather than deeply felt yet unsubstantiated opinions.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
With all due respect that position isnt exactly profound. Tragedy defines life. It might well be argued that suffering is the one constant in human affairs. It is not that it may happen but when and in what form and why.
I am not trying to be profound. Tons of people have the ability to feel empathy. You should try it!
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:39 PM
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No one says you cant care about both but what can you effectively do about both? Maybe its a matter of practicality. You cant help the state of things in the US and thats not defeatist but a realist line of thought. Perhaps Im being protective of my home but Im not telling you how to run Canada. Especially not on a writer's board where it will do all the good of a word in the wind.

Weve gotten derailed here and perhaps Im to blame for that. Were here to discuss not jab back and forth. So lets get back on topic.

@eri

I think when it comes to the mankind of the future were approaching a fork in the road between genetic manipulation and cybernetics and this may lead to two subtypes of human beings and that would be something fascinating and worth revising language over.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:48 PM
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Edit: I accidentally submitted this post before I was done so Ill keep updating this over the next ten or so minutes.

@eri He didnt say it but Im giving him the charitable interpretation. Maybe not my place to do it but its done. If he disagrees or agrees Ill let him speak for himself.

In Seattle there is no controversy over trans issues. Its very far left.

Look at John and yourself: I consider you both to be intelligent, reasonable, and open minded people from the posts I've read, and yet you both believe trans people are making up their identity in order to gain some kind of victim kudos. So even intelligent, reasonable, and open-minded people refuse to accept the identity of transsexuals.

I take a tad of umbrage to this but maybe I havent made myself clear (and Im not saying youre trying to be insulting). I make a distinction between those individuals who suffer from dysphoria and the far left activist groups who purport to represent them because I dont see their actions as in any way helping those people in fact it seems these groups are calling far more attention to them then they would actually like.

Heres the thing Im perfectly fine with trans people. Honestly I couldnt care less if someone wants to cut off their Johnson. It doesnt bother me if a guy wants to undergo hormonal treatment to develop breasts (It does bother me when they list themselves on the female side of Tinder and do everything to hide the transition so maybe thats a point of discussion). What I dislike is the dogmatic thought being instituted in universities by them. And at this point I have to broaden out because if Im going to talk about the LGBTYQ2+ activist community (and I stress activist) then I also need to start talking about the groups with which they are affiliated and their common ideological underpinnings. That would be radical feminism/Antifa/Anarchist/LGBTYQ2+ But at this point I think Im straying from the opening post. Should we continue this tangent in a new thread and keep on talking about language here?

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Old 10-24-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
@eri He didnt say it but Im giving him the charitable interpretation. Maybe not my place to do it but its done. If he disagrees or agrees Ill let him speak for himself.

In Seattle there is no controversy over trans issues. Its very far left.

Look at John and yourself: I consider you both to be intelligent, reasonable, and open minded people from the posts I've read, and yet you both believe trans people are making up their identity in order to gain some kind of victim kudos. So even intelligent, reasonable, and open-minded people refuse to accept the identity of transsexuals.

I take a tad of umbrage to this but maybe I havent made myself clear.
That's fair, and I apologise. John implied this moreso than you, and I'm not even sure you supported him on that particular point at any time, so again: sorry.
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:52 PM
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baahhh i accidentally pressed enter too soon! just read the post above yours in about ten minutes
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:59 PM
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Fair enough the conversation was going in circles; clearly we are stubborn people. The evolution and revolution of sex, gender, and sexuality is a fascinating conversation when you leave morality at the door and simply talk facts. What is the difference between femininity and masculity? I think it is merely a question of chemicals. A man can be feminine without having a vagina, being feminine does not make him a woman. I do not think a man who enjoys anal sex is gay but I do think the act of being penetrated is feminine. A woman's clitoris is simular to a penis and if she PREFERS stimulation of it over penetration she is masculine in that regard- whether or not she likes to wear make up or dresses or not. We do need more names for things. I think people are going under the knife for things we don't understand yet.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:01 PM
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Just gonna post this again so its at the bottom of the page.

@eri He didnt say it but Im giving him the charitable interpretation. Maybe not my place to do it but its done. If he disagrees or agrees Ill let him speak for himself.

In Seattle there is no controversy over trans issues. Its very far left.

Look at John and yourself: I consider you both to be intelligent, reasonable, and open minded people from the posts I've read, and yet you both believe trans people are making up their identity in order to gain some kind of victim kudos. So even intelligent, reasonable, and open-minded people refuse to accept the identity of transsexuals.

I take a tad of umbrage to this but maybe I havent made myself clear (and Im not saying youre trying to be insulting). I make a distinction between those individuals who suffer from dysphoria and the far left activist groups who purport to represent them because I dont see their actions as in any way helping those people in fact it seems these groups are calling far more attention to them then they would actually like.

Are you sure someone is going to willingly give up harmonious social integration just to score some victim points? No doubt it happens, but it would be rare, and anyone who is so messed up they feel the need to do that is probably in a pretty unfortunate place and deserves compassion rather than denigration.

The thing to keep in mind is that its not inharmonious depending on where you are. That was the point I was making about oppression being regional. The image of the oppressed trans is cultivated to a certain extent in the same way that the far right tries to display themselves as being victims of society. Its not just the scoring of virtue points its social advancement and I mean that in the absolute sense.


This is an example from Washington (where Seattle, Portland are):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wdGCAdDVHM


This is an extreme example but it does go to show how entrenched this ideology is. But speaking strictly for myself this is what disconcerts me and its these kind of people pushing for the revision of language.

Heres the thing Im perfectly fine with trans people. Honestly I couldnt care less if someone wants to cut off their Johnson. It doesnt bother me if a guy wants to undergo hormonal treatment to develop breasts (It does bother me when they list themselves on the female side of Tinder and do everything to hide the transition so maybe thats a point of discussion). What I dislike is the dogmatic thought being instituted in universities by them. And at this point I have to broaden out because if Im going to talk about the LGBTYQ2+ activist community (and I stress activist) then I also need to start talking about the groups with which they are affiliated and their common ideological underpinnings. That would be radical feminism/Antifa/Anarchist/LGBTYQ2+ But at this point I think Im straying from the opening post. Should we continue this tangent in a new thread and keep on talking about language here?

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Old 10-24-2017, 07:05 PM
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[QUOTE=eripiomundus;737928]If John was talking about specific enclaves he never made that clear. He made a sweeping generalisation. I fully understand that there are always going to be pockets of contradictory evidence against any a generalisation, so I'm not criticising the use of a generalisation in saying that. It's very nearly impossible to say anything sociologically without generalising.

I live in Australia, so I can't vouch for how open minded people are in Seattle, but I suspect trans people are not as perfectly accepted as you imply. Look at John and yourself: I consider you both to be intelligent, reasonable, and open minded people from the posts I've read, and yet you both believe trans people are making up their identity in order to gain some kind of victim kudos. So even intelligent, reasonable, and open-minded people refuse to accept the identity of transsexuals.

If no one believed a core part of your identity, continually saying "you're just 'putting it on'" and you encountered these people every single day I'm pretty sure your quality of life would suffer for it. How can you socially integrate with people who openly disbelieve who you claim to be? I don't think it would be easy. How would you feel if most people you interacted with disbelieved your (I'm guessing) heterosexual self-identification?

Are you sure someone is going to willingly give up harmonious social integration just to score some victim points? No doubt it happens, but it would be rare, and anyone who is so messed up they feel the need to do that is probably in a pretty unfortunate place and deserves compassion rather than denigration.

[QUOTE]Now keeping that in mind a fundamentalist Christian might feel very well at home in Houston but put them in Portland and theyre going to feel out of place.

So what I see is when the left says theyre oppressed the right says theyre persecuted. And how many times have you seen Christians bemoan the ever ongoing war on Christmas or the erosion of Christian values? In the same way that they try to portray themselves as martyrs for a cause the SJWs and the activist trans seek to be identified as victims and oppressed. Now when John says he thinks its cool what I think he may mean (and correct me if Im wrong John, sing us a song John, let us begin John, let the Satan flow through you John ) is that there is solidarity and purpose in suffering and people desire both.
I accept that you've specifically named "activist trans" when you say they seek to be identified as victims, and that this may be true of a decent portion of that demographic, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that's a trend that extends throughout the entire trans community. Just as with any minority demographic, there will be a select few who feel as if they have been victimised, and become activists (though not all activists are victims), but that doesn't mean every trans-person believes they are a victim. You're taking the most vocal and far-left segment of a wider community and using it to create generalisations concerning the community in its entirety. It's an easy trap to fall into.


What we have today is a culture that celebrates immaturity, and this drives a lot of what, as far as I can tell, you have an issue with (sorry for presuming to know your opinion). If I'm right I consider you to have a reasonable objection, but this pattern has happened before and it will happen again.

When a person is born their genetics are half of each of their parents (ignoring epigenetics for brevity). Experience shapes the genetic development and neurological patterns, but when you're a baby you have no say in your experience - it is chosen for you. At some stage in your development you come to unconsciously realise that all that is "you" was put there by those around you, and you want independence from it. You want to become a distinct person instead of a part of other people. So you rebel, you seek an identity that is yours alone. This is a natural process of maturation, but society today celebrates it, giving rise to a culture of continuing and deepening immaturity.

People are exposed to a wider array of influences through technology and media these days, so when it comes time to forge an identity distinct from their influences so far, some young people feel the need to seek an extreme form of individual identity. So you get things like goths in the 90s and punks in the 70s - I'm very nearly a hermit (only talk to another human in person for 45mins a week) so I'm not really sure what rebellious things the youth of today are up to. Each generation wants to distinguish itself from the previous one, which is exactly what drives generational changes in linguistics.

There might well be a small fraction of transsexuals who are just searching for an identity, but given that there are physical differences in the brains of transsexuals compared to standard gender-identifying persons I'd put my money on the hard science rather than deeply felt yet unsubstantiated opinions.
Do you beta read? I need your brain in my life. What do you think gender really is?
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Loser&Loner View Post
I am not trying to be profound. Tons of people have the ability to feel empathy. You should try it!
Perhaps there is and underlying empathy -- maybe on a personal level that we don't see here.

But it's hard to see it under the multiple layers of esoteric bullshit...

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Old 10-24-2017, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Perhaps there is and underlying empathy -- maybe on a personal level that we don't see here.

But it's hard to see it under the multiple layers of esoteric bullshit...
Dude we are letting it go. I said some things he said some things... it was lame. But hey if you want to start this up again I'm in!
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:19 PM
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Oh Myers you are such a yahoo
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:19 PM
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Blue feel empathy and stuff!
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:20 PM
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Im gonna create a new thread we can talk about empathy but lets keep going with language here.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:21 PM
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AMERICA CAN EAT IT! BLACK LIVES MATTER! No blood for oil!
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:22 PM
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Sorry. What exactly do you want? More words to define gender as the lines become blurred in our modern era.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:25 PM
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Its ok I think the thread is dead. Long live the thread. Such is the way of the world.
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Old 10-24-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewpc View Post
I take a tad of umbrage to this but maybe I havent made myself clear (and Im not saying youre trying to be insulting). I make a distinction between those individuals who suffer from dysphoria and the far left activist groups who purport to represent them because I dont see their actions as in any way helping those people in fact it seems these groups are calling far more attention to them then they would actually like.
I agree.

Heres the thing Im perfectly fine with trans people. Honestly I couldnt care less if someone wants to cut off their Johnson. It doesnt bother me if a guy wants to undergo hormonal treatment to develop breasts (It does bother me when they list themselves on the female side of Tinder and do everything to hide the transition so maybe thats a point of discussion). What I dislike is the dogmatic thought being instituted in universities by them.
I'm very likely out of the loop (in almost every way). I don't socialize, don't read the news in any way whatsoever, don't listen to the radio or watch TV, so maybe I don't really understand the extent to which these issues are affecting everyday life. I don't even know what the YQ2+ part of LGBTYQ2+ (that you mentioned in your next paragraph) means to be honest. Maybe if I were better informed on current affairs I'd agree with you entirely, but as I've maintained throughout, I already do agree that radically altering linguistics to suit small minorities is not a reasonable or practical thing. My gripe is only about whether there is evidence to support people's gender-specific self-identification or not.

Your initial post, if my memory serves me correctly, implies that there is no rationale for complexing gender-related linguistics. My objection is that there is biological evidence supporting the gender-identities of transsexuals, and therefore there is rational grounds for creating extra linguistic terms to apply to what are unmistakably different categories of gender identity. That's not to say that actively forcing those terms into the mainstream is agreeable or practical, but only that it is reasonable to apply a new linguistic term to a new category when one arises. So basically, as I think you've also come to understand, we're not that far from the same page.

And at this point I have to broaden out because if Im going to talk about the LGBTYQ2+ activist community (and I stress activist) then I also need to start talking about the groups with which they are affiliated and their common ideological underpinnings. That would be radical feminism/Antifa/Anarchist/LGBTYQ2+ But at this point I think Im straying from the opening post. Should we continue this tangent in a new thread and keep on talking about language here?
Ok, start a new thread if you like. I think this particular one might have run its course though, so it probably doesn't really matter if we just switch topics. It's not like many people frequent the site these days, so we can afford to be lax with regard to forum etiquette.

Consciousness is another thing I wouldn't mind discussing with you: specifically the role of consciousness with regard to social animals.
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