Obama "stimulus" destroyed one million jobs

[Lagrange]

Obama doesn't need the economy to improve now...he needs it to improve sometime around mid 2012. Which it will, allowing him a win over Rommey.

Americans may need the economy to improve now. But not Obama. Were it to improve now the Republicans would switch their tactics to social issues or foreign policy and Obama would have to fight them on those fronts.
Best for Obama to weather bad press on the economic front, and deal with some low approval ratings, and then in mid 2012 ride even the slightest economic improvement to re-election.
And that's exactly what's going to happen. I'd literally bet my life on it.

[Justice]

You know Lagrange, ordinarily I would agree... but then I thought that the economy would improve in 2009, 2010 and 2011. I don't know that Obama and the Democrats would have sacrificed their majorities if there was something they could have done to prevent it. One would think that things HAVE TO improve by summer 2012... I'm just not convinced it will. I mean we have the stimulus that was weighted toward Obama's re-election... but will that make for a marked improvement, I doubt it.

[Lagrange]

"I don't know that Obama and the Democrats would have sacrificed their majorities if there was something they could have done to prevent it. One would think that things HAVE TO improve by summer 2012... "

That's just it: there is nothing any Republican or Democrat can do to "fix" this recession--it has to run it's course.
Rightly or wrongly, Obama is now taking a lot of hits for the recession. Even though the majority of Americans still blame the republicans more than the democrats for the recession, Obama IS the man in charge, so he has to take the heat.
But the flip side to that is, as the recession eases, Obama--rightly or wrongly--will get the credit.

[Justice]

A crafty Republican could also spin it as a Congress that drew a line and gave the market stability (not that I believe that, they've done JACK to this point). A quality politician could easily make it seem that Obama was dead in the water until the House was taken over by the right. If Obama does win re-election, I believe it will have more to do with the lackluster field than his skills as a leader or an economic recovery which may/may not come.

[Gaines]

Come next election Obama will lose if the economy, jobs primarily, has not made a substantial turn around.

Presently big business is heading for record profits while working class America and many small business concerns are suffering the blow. Neither side of the aisle seems to be able to get a handle on the problem and to say that Reps have solutions still waiting for the Presidents signature is horseshit. (Wagner) If that were true they would be touting their solutions at the top of their lungs, and that little rep debate the other night would have been hitting long and hard on their in place strategies being ignored by the admin on the hill.

Big business is reaping in profits yet they are not putting jobs on the market in any numbers considered substantial. When you take a close look at the source of these profits you will find it is a mix of creative accouting and a slow increase of business through their doors.

It's a cluster f---.

Big business is reaping the benefits of a runaway government spending money faster than they can print it. If you do a little economic research you see that Wall Street and the stock markets are completely out of whack with the rest of the economy of the country.

It's a phony government bubble. It has been created by borrowing and pumping over $4 trillion excess money into the economy. The theory the democrats are still holding onto is that pouring this amount of money into the economy will create jobs, stabilize the housing market, and everyone will be pooping rainbows.

Those theories are old, tired, and proven to be complete failures. You can't borrow your way into prosperity.

But there is a tremendous amount of money out there going to companies and individuals willing to do favors for their senator, congressman, and president (both parties, Gaines).

A lot of that money has gone into purchasing worthless paper in the stock market because they think the prices will keep going up as long as the government is run by the people who spend like idiots.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by gary_wagner

Big business is reaping the benefits of a runaway government spending money faster than they can print it. If you do a little economic research you see that Wall Street and the stock markets are completely out of whack with the rest of the economy of the country.

This is the absolute truth. We should have allowed companies to fail, dealt with the pain and started a process of rebuilding (which would have created DEMAND and REAL growth). The fact that Jamie Dimon is going to make $21MM this year, makes me sick. What a total piece of garbage that sonuvabitch is... but Obama made sure that Wall Street trumped Main Street. If China settles in for a hard landing (which Roubini says is likely) and inflation soars... we'll see just what a dog and pony show our government has been selling us.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by Justice

This is the absolute truth. We should have allowed companies to fail, dealt with the pain and started a process of rebuilding (which would have created DEMAND and REAL growth). The fact that Jamie Dimon is going to make $21MM this year, makes me sick. What a total piece of garbage that sonuvabitch is... but Obama made sure that Wall Street trumped Main Street. If China settles in for a hard landing (which Roubini says is likely) and inflation soars... we'll see just what a dog and pony show our government has been selling us.

Holy cow! 'This gets funnier by the minute. It's like watching Hannity and Combs trying to read a spread sheet. Tedious.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Gaines

Holy cow! 'This gets funnier by the minute. It's like watching Hannity and Combs trying to read a spread sheet. Tedious.

You have hack covered... partisan and literary.

It sucks to be in the minority, doesn't it Gaines? Are you really one of the 31% who supports Obama's fiscal policies or are you just yanking our chain?

The tide has turned. 56% now say that the current economic problems are Obama's and Obama's alone. He can't hide behind mommy's skirt any more and say this mess is all Bush's fault. It's about time for him to grow a set and admit his mistakes.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by Justice

You have hack covered... partisan and literary.

You think allowing the auto industry and the mortgage industry to fail was the start to the solution for fixing our economy? Really? Tell me no for god's sakes..please tell me you just kidding about letting those industries shut their doors and laying off hundreds of thousands. I realize no one takes the term "intellectual forum" that seriously but you could at least try a well thought supposition now and again.

You have no idea the impact that sort of blindisighted action would have had on this country. Let me help you out a bit and feel free to scoff at my efforts all you want. This is a short list of the business sectors the closing of the big 3 would impact.

1. The Big Three plants and hundreds of thousands of workers nationwide.
2. Every supplier that provides parts to the auto industry.
3. The lost revenue to the trucking industry that hauls the cars and the parts.
4. Financial loan revenue loss to lenders on new car purchases.
5. Every dealership coast to coast and overseas and every employee in those dealerships.
6. Body shops, upholstery shops, trim shops, accessory shops, tire manufacturers, and the list goes on.
7. Import prices would soar and so would used car prices. Buyers would be forced to come out of pocket with high down payments to meet car loan guidelines. Hard to do in this economy but what the hell we can all walk to work when our cars go to pot.
And buses don't run to the rural areas by the way.
8. States unemployment funds would dry up and blow away and they would be screaming to the federal government for financial help.
9. Mortgage failures would quickly double or triple the amount they are at now.
10. Pensions funds would be decimated.
11. Crime rates would climb. Desperate times induce desperate measures.
12. Stocks would plummet faster than Madonnas cone bra.
13. Depression plain and ugly.

I could go on but if that doesn't work for you why waste the space. We won't get into the suffering families that would be affected by your let them fail attitude. We already have enough of that. This president you think so poorly of did about the only thing he could do to keep those doors open for the industries that employ and feed millions from the top down. I could care less if he were rep or dem.

As for being a hack and a partisan I would rather be that than a shortsighted moron who thinks our solution is to stand on the white house lawn and yell..."let them eat cake." God you are clueless for even suggesting that.

You Who...Gary...

What's a matter right winger? Tired of getting Bush rubbed in your face? It ain't changed. Bush..Bush..Bush. We know who fucked this all up and it was your boy the genius. Lil' George and daddys cronies blowing smoke up his ass. What a monkey. Too bad he never grew a pair.

As for the minority..well buddy..that's what got the big O elected the last time and it will do it again. He knows how to organize a community. You guys on the otherhand can't even organize a successful presidential campaign! Hah!

I enjoyed your rep pres candidate debate the other night. Holy cow! Stirring rhetoric...really upscale stuff. You bozos are going to end up running Romney and probably that broad with the big red lips. Mark my words before its over with Romney is going to get caught running around their campaign bus in her undergarmets while she chases him with a whip and a banana. It's not like they're going to be busy between whistle stops.

Yanking your chain? Maybe.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Gaines

Really? Tell me no for god's sakes..please tell me you just kidding about letting those industries shut their doors and laying off hundreds of thousands.

Gaines, this shows me that you are completely clueless as to the realities of bankruptcy and restructuring of debt in this country. You assume because a company has to deal with a bankruptcy EVERYBODY gets fired. You're a moron. Since the stimulus, we've lost 2 million jobs. How about those folks, where is their bailout? Would GM and Chrysler no longer exist if they had filed for bankruptcy? Maybe, maybe not... WE DON'T KNOW. There are plenty of companies that have filed for bankruptcy in the past that are thriving businesses today. You are aware that the auto industry is a shadow of its former self. In 1979 GM had a workforce of 853,000 in 2009 the number was 235,000. My God, what happened to those workers? How was it not the end of the world as auto companies modernized and dumped jobs? We gave GM/Chrysler/GMAC/Chrysler Financial $80.7 billion. We threw another $2.85 billion at them with cash for clunkers. Here's the best part... the number of Prius hybrids bought with the program was 15,013... wonderful. Why? Well, it's because our auto industry didn't take fuel economy seriously.

My point is, and will remain... that we had no business bailing out private companies. INNOVATE, CREATE, MANUFACTURE AND SELL... IF YOU CAN'T DO IT... YOU DON'T DESERVE TO DO BUSINESS. We have lost 2 million jobs since the stimulus, housing remains in the toilet, autos are up and down. Housing leveled off only so long as there was a tax credit. Cars sold well during cash for clunkers. So what are we to take from that? Does the government have to throw money at people in order for them to buy? If you pay that idea forward, Republicans supporting tax breaks might have a leg to stand on where their logic is concerned. Of course, Democrats would rather tell you where to spend the money (autos for their unions) then allow you to pump YOUR OWN MONEY into the things that matter to you.

Your list is shit because your assumption is that without assistance GM and Chrysler would have ceased to exist... that just isn't accurate. Now, taxpayers are going to have to eat it (experts say we will never get our money back because we've already sold a lot of stock LOW and the remainder will never be sold at a high enough price to make up the difference) and we still have zero idea as to whether or not GM/Chrysler can realistically compete.

Banks have NO RIGHT to make money on loans being paid by people upside down on their mortgages. Any amount owed in excess of the home's value should be paid back at 0% interest. Again, we are rewarding CROOKS with taxpayer money. You seem fine with that, I am not. I owe more than my house is worth, I pay every month but I know a lot of people who have simply walked away. WHERE THE FUCK IS MY HELP? WHERE IS MY BAILOUT FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING? Worse still, I am on the hook for the bailout on top of getting jerked for doing the right thing. I guess because I'm self-employed and motivated to do for myself, I'm just screwed... right.

Originally Posted by Gaines

You think allowing the auto industry and the mortgage industry to fail was the start to the solution for fixing our economy? Really? Tell me no for god's sakes..please tell me you just kidding about letting those industries shut their doors and laying off hundreds of thousands. I realize no one takes the term "intellectual forum" that seriously but you could at least try a well thought supposition now and again.

You need to get your anger management under control. Your hatred for all thing Bush and/or conservative is eating you alive.

The plain ugly truth is that the auto companies were never at risk of closing their doors and laying off all the employees. Had Obama not illegally stepped in and bypassed the bankruptcy courts, they would have been just fine. They would have survived and would be better off today than they are now.

Why? Because any bankruptcy judge with an ounce of intelligence would have terminated the insane union contracts that are paying unskilled factory workers $150,000 per year in salary and benefits.

So now we have auto companies kept artificially alive with a continuous infusion of tax money that will collapse again when they get weaned off the liberal tit.

Obama didn't "save the auto companies". He gave the unions a $100 billion dollar payback for the billion they gave his election campaign. The auto companies didn't need saving by the government - that's what the bankruptcy system is for.

So save your naive dribble about Obama saving us from the end of civilization as we know it. He illegally stole $50 billion of auto company stock and illegally used $50 billion of taxpayer money to prop up his union buddies.

This is bribery, graft, and political patronage in its most pure form. This is down in the dirt, slimy, crooked Chicago style politics - on a national scale.

[Gaines]

You two clowns need to just sit by the tube and watch Fox like good boys. What a pair of clueless right wingers...party trend I suppose.

Pfft...joke.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by Justice

Gaines, this shows me that you are completely clueless as to the realities of bankruptcy and restructuring of debt in this country. You assume because a company has to deal with a bankruptcy EVERYBODY gets fired. You're a moron. Since the stimulus, we've lost 2 million jobs. How about those folks, where is their bailout? Would GM and Chrysler no longer exist if they had filed for bankruptcy? Maybe, maybe not... WE DON'T KNOW. There are plenty of companies that have filed for bankruptcy in the past that are thriving businesses today. You are aware that the auto industry is a shadow of its former self. In 1979 GM had a workforce of 853,000 in 2009 the number was 235,000. My God, what happened to those workers? How was it not the end of the world as auto companies modernized and dumped jobs? We gave GM/Chrysler/GMAC/Chrysler Financial $80.7 billion. We threw another $2.85 billion at them with cash for clunkers. Here's the best part... the number of Prius hybrids bought with the program was 15,013... wonderful. Why? Well, it's because our auto industry didn't take fuel economy seriously.
*********************************
Try downsizing that amount of workers over a year or two versus twenty you numbskull. Look at your stats. Your an imbecile. By the way clueless I spent 26 years in the auto industry so dont tell me what you dont know about it. The consumer never took hybrids seriously..I know that for a damn fact. I sold them.

Thousands get laid off just in the manufaturing section alone. Then add in the afterarket business concerns that loose lucrative contracts. Wake up Rip. You are soooo clueless.





My point is, and will remain... that we had no business bailing out private companies. INNOVATE, CREATE, MANUFACTURE AND SELL... IF YOU CAN'T DO IT... YOU DON'T DESERVE TO DO BUSINESS. We have lost 2 million jobs since the stimulus, housing remains in the toilet, autos are up and down. Housing leveled off only so long as there was a tax credit. Cars sold well during cash for clunkers. So what are we to take from that? Does the government have to throw money at people in order for them to buy? If you pay that idea forward, Republicans supporting tax breaks might have a leg to stand on where their logic is concerned. Of course, Democrats would rather tell you where to spend the money (autos for their unions) then allow you to pump YOUR OWN MONEY into the things that matter to you.
********************************
Let them eat cake..thanks Marie...go back to sleep.


Your list is shit because your assumption is that without assistance GM and Chrysler would have ceased to exist... that just isn't accurate. Now, taxpayers are going to have to eat it (experts say we will never get our money back because we've already sold a lot of stock LOW and the remainder will never be sold at a high enough price to make up the difference) and we still have zero idea as to whether or not GM/Chrysler can realistically compete.

Your brain is shit. If you have a crystal ball you should go bowling with it.


Banks have NO RIGHT to make money on loans being paid by people upside down on their mortgages. Any amount owed in excess of the home's value should be paid back at 0% interest. Again, we are rewarding CROOKS with taxpayer money. You seem fine with that, I am not. I owe more than my house is worth, I pay every month but I know a lot of people who have simply walked away. WHERE THE FUCK IS MY HELP? WHERE IS MY BAILOUT FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING? Worse still, I am on the hook for the bailout on top of getting jerked for doing the right thing. I guess because I'm self-employed and motivated to do for myself, I'm just screwed... right.

******************************
You screwed yourself. And I never said we were not rewarding crooks with taxpayer money. That's business whiner. Maybe you should send a letter to your rep congressman and see if he will give you a bailout..either that or eat cake! The same pinch that your ass is in is exactly what you would propose to do to others. Not so damn funny is it!

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by gary_wagner

You need to get your anger management under control. Your hatred for all thing Bush and/or conservative is eating you alive.
******************************
And you love the big O don't you righty? You have no room to talk let alone talk politics.

The plain ugly truth is that the auto companies were never at risk of closing their doors and laying off all the employees. Had Obama not illegally stepped in and bypassed the bankruptcy courts, they would have been just fine. They would have survived and would be better off today than they are now.

Bullshit..pure bullshit.


Why? Because any bankruptcy judge with an ounce of intelligence would have terminated the insane union contracts that are paying unskilled factory workers $150,000 per year in salary and benefits.

So now we have auto companies kept artificially alive with a continuous infusion of tax money that will collapse again when they get weaned off the liberal tit.

Obama didn't "save the auto companies". He gave the unions a $100 billion dollar payback for the billion they gave his election campaign. The auto companies didn't need saving by the government - that's what the bankruptcy system is for.

So save your naive dribble about Obama saving us from the end of civilization as we know it. He illegally stole $50 billion of auto company stock and illegally used $50 billion of taxpayer money to prop up his union buddies.

This is bribery, graft, and political patronage in its most pure form. This is down in the dirt, slimy, crooked Chicago style politics - on a national scale.

********************************

So, how's that anger management class working out for you? Never mind..I can see the results. More right sided crap from another Fox minion.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Gaines

******************************
You screwed yourself. And I never said we were not rewarding crooks with taxpayer money. That's business whiner. Maybe you should send a letter to your rep congressman and see if he will give you a bailout..either that or eat cake! The same pinch that your ass is in is exactly what you would propose to do to others. Not so damn funny is it!

You're an idiot... but of course, you're too stupid to know that. We're done. You like to push people around, but you're just another douche screaming into the void. What I really love though, what is completely endearing, is that you call people partisan while being the premier example of it. I feel pity for a guy like you. People never took hybrids seriously? That was then, grandpa... this is now. At least now we're all clued in as to why you're so bent on bailing out the auto industry. Businesses that cannot see a trend, cannot move with the curve... DESERVE TO DIE. If I don't sell money, I go broke and I fail... if they don't sell cars... they should similarly fail. I'm all about standing up and dealing with MY problems... which is exactly what I want autoworkers/auto companies to do. I adapt, or I die... I guess autoworkers are just too fucking stupid to do that? I'm not going to insult hardworking people, but you apparently will... because without a handout, these people are apparently worthless. Nice.

Again, you assume that no bailout means EVERYBODY IS UNEMPLOYED. It's a simplistic notion, made by a simplistic person... and it's dead wrong.

So, how's that anger management class working out for you? Never mind..I can see the results. More right sided crap from another Fox minion.

You're shooting the messenger, Gaines. It makes you double angry because you can't prove a single word of it wrong.

I feel sorry for people who still feel the need to support such a proven failure as Obama.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by Justice

You're an idiot... but of course, you're too stupid to know that. We're done. You like to push people around, but you're just another douche screaming into the void. What I really love though, what is completely endearing, is that you call people partisan while being the premier example of it. I feel pity for a guy like you. People never took hybrids seriously? That was then, grandpa... this is now. At least now we're all clued in as to why you're so bent on bailing out the auto industry. Businesses that cannot see a trend, cannot move with the curve... DESERVE TO DIE. If I don't sell money, I go broke and I fail... if they don't sell cars... they should similarly fail. I'm all about standing up and dealing with MY problems... which is exactly what I want autoworkers/auto companies to do. I adapt, or I die... I guess autoworkers are just too fucking stupid to do that? I'm not going to insult hardworking people, but you apparently will... because without a handout, these people are apparently worthless. Nice.

Again, you assume that no bailout means EVERYBODY IS UNEMPLOYED. It's a simplistic notion, made by a simplistic person... and it's dead wrong.

*************************


Contless thousands is not everyone you mathematically challenged rube. Oh, listen to you try and make it sound like I implied autoworkers are stupid...desperation suits you just like the rest of your party..you're running out of steam lil" engine. Hah! Adapt or die...what's next a picture of Clint Eastwood shooting a liberal? Snort. Go ahead..make my day! I am as partisan as you are.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by gary_wagner

You're shooting the messenger, Gaines. It makes you double angry because you can't prove a single word of it wrong.
****************************
Obviously anyone that doesn't agree with your politics must be angry. You channeling Dick Cheney today or running out of straws to grasp? Same difference eh righty.


I feel sorry for people who still feel the need to support such a proven failure as Obama.

****************************
Bush...Bush...Bush. Not half as sorry as I feel for the dupes that think he is a genius. I guess he would be to you. Hah!

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Gaines

*************************


Contless thousands is not everyone you mathematically challenged rube. Oh, listen to you try and make it sound like I implied autoworkers are stupid...desperation suits you just like the rest of your party..you're running out of steam lil" engine. Hah! Adapt or die...what's next a picture of Clint Eastwood shooting a liberal? Snort. Go ahead..make my day! I am as partisan as you are.

I rest my case, a bunch of nothing. What's running out of steam is your schtick. I do love the dopey references to things like Eastwood. You're like a mall cop, only without the self-respect afforded by a paycheck.

[El D.]

This again. Democrats are stupid with money. Republicans are heartless jerks. Is this what I am reading?

Haha, come on Justice. Let him play. It's only a forum. I'm enjoying it.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by El D.

Haha, come on Justice. Let him play. It's only a forum. I'm enjoying it.

I hear ya... *snickers*

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by Justice

I rest my case, a bunch of nothing. What's running out of steam is your schtick. I do love the dopey references to things like Eastwood. You're like a mall cop, only without the self-respect afforded by a paycheck.

You ran out of steam the last election. The Eastwood stuff was just following your lead. I tried not to complicate for you but a I see I failed to do so. You hang with a lot of mall cops do you? Figures. Now get out there and take one for the team.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by El D.

This again. Democrats are stupid with money. Republicans are heartless jerks. Is this what I am reading?

Haha, come on Justice. Let him play. It's only a forum. I'm enjoying it.

me too...hah!

[El D.]

I mean, he's a good writer. It's difficult to care about left right politics anymore. In the US either side will gladly sell us all out.

[Gaines]

Originally Posted by El D.

I mean, he's a good writer. It's difficult to care about left right politics anymore. In the US either side will gladly sell us all out.

Exactly! The problem is that people think one side is better or smater than the other..not! That's how we get sucked into their horseshit..naay..I say.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Gaines

Exactly! The problem is that people think one side is better or smater than the other..not! That's how we get sucked into their horseshit..naay..I say.

Wow. You should read your stuff, bro. I'm starting to think manic depressive or schizophrenic. You're right about one thing though, they've divided us and it's made playing us all the easier for em.

[Gaines]

I enjoy playing the devils advocate. It matters little to me which party is in the catbird seat.

Every election year it is the same old rhetoric with the same old results. Special interest rules the day and the candidate that can pander to the real powers behind the throne while invigorating the masses is your winner.

BTW I have enjoyed pricking you two. Hillary for President!!!

[DanielR1994]

Well lets go your way. Lets let the auto industry and banks go under. If they were gone how many jobs would have been lost then. Thousands more. Just saying.