Breaking rules

Shelly · #31 11-30-2009, 02:02 PM

The time is ripe for public schools for atheists. This way student A doesn't ram his beliefs down student B's throat.

A happy family of believers and non-believers. Just think how wonderful it would be to never have anymore speeches interrupted. A win-win situation.

There is a never-ending struggle for control. Humankind is obsessed with controling. Anybody who tells you otherwise is full of crap.

Karolina · #32 12-01-2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

The time is ripe for public schools for atheists. This way student A doesn't ram his beliefs down student B's throat.

Public schools are not the place to teach any student about any religion. If a parent wants the kid to learn about religion, they should take that job upon themselves, but maybe that's just too much work and they would rather sit and watch American Idol. If I don't want my kid to be religious, I wouldn't want the school to be teaching him/her about it. If a parent wants their kid to learn in a religious environment then they should enroll them in a Christian school, or teach them religion at home. I would be very offended if my child had any beliefs rammed down his/her throat at school.

Shelly · #33 12-01-2009, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Karolina

Public schools are not the place to teach any student about any religion. If a parent wants the kid to learn about religion, they should take that job upon themselves, but maybe that's just too much work and they would rather sit and watch American Idol. If I don't want my kid to be religious, I wouldn't want the school to be teaching him/her about it. If a parent wants their kid to learn in a religious environment then they should enroll them in a Christian school, or teach them religion at home. I would be very offended if my child had any beliefs rammed down his/her throat at school.

Maybe they should be. Public schools are years behind Catholic and private schools. If you want to make a fuss about something important, you should start paying attention to the high dropout rate in the public school system instead of focusing on a teenager giving a speech on religion.

I've known Jewish families who sent their children to Catholic schools because 1) the schools were much less dangerous than the public ones and 2) the teaching was so much more advanced.

I don't know where you live. Maybe you have a picturesque view of a cornfield from your kitchen window. But religion in the classroom would not harm inner-city children in any way. It could only make a bad situation better.

NYCLU: Schools Are Safer Without Metal Detectors

The NYCLU, the Annenberg Institute for School Reform at Brown University, and Make the Road New York have released a report arguing that schools can create a safer environment without metal detectors and harsh discipline. The study, called "Safety with Dignity: Alternatives to Over-Policing Schools," is based on a year-long examination of six NYC schools with "at-risk" student populations that do not use metal detectors. According to the report, these schools have improved attendance, better student retention and graduation rates, and "dramatically fewer" criminal and non-criminal incidents and school suspensions than schools equipped with permanent metal detectors.
The Department of Education says that the study's claim to better graduation rates is false, and the NYPD counters that metal detectors have helped schools confiscate 22 guns last year and six guns so far this year. But NYCLU director Donna Lieberman says, "The schools profiled in this report prove that there are effective, real-world alternatives to making schools feel like jails. They show that treating students with dignity and respect is the best approach to producing good, safe schools." In a statement, Lieberman adds:

Karolina · #34 12-01-2009, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

I don't know where you live. Maybe you have a picturesque view of a cornfield from your kitchen window. But religion in the classroom would not harm inner-city children in any way. It could only make a bad situation better.

I'm in the East coast, grew up in the inner-city actually. Went to private school to avoid getting stabbed or shot at in school. I know what I'm talking about Shelly. Luckly, I got out and moved to a nicer, quaint town. Religion would do nothing in the inner-city schools, better education would, teachers who cared would, security would, parent education would. Yes public schools are behind, but it has nothing to do with lack of religion. Hell, this whole country is behind on education compared to the rest of the world. It has nothing to do with religion so don't confuse the two.

Mike C · #35 12-01-2009, 05:48 AM

In the UK everyone gets a religious education whether they want it or not, and I think that's a good thing. Parents have the option of removing them from classes, but most don't.

But Karolina's right, good education is about more than just having a religious bias in the school.

Shelly · #36 12-01-2009, 05:52 AM

Consider yourself fortunate. But the point is you had to escape. Many children cannot afford to flee to nicer parts of town--that costs money.

In my short career in the NYC school system, I've been in classrooms where the only white face was mine, and half of the class couldn't even speak English. Don't think for one minute that prayer doesn't soothe the soul. I've seen the magical effect it had on my Puerto Rican classmates.

Security would make things better? How about respect for one another. Discipline. Obedience. You seek happiness, right? Well, you cannot find it outside of yourself. Peace is the same. You're barking up the wrong tree thinking security would better a situation. Cultivating virtues makes a person better, and therefore makes the entire world better.

My old school was demolished. I was sad when they knocked down that building; it was like a fortress (even had a playing field on the roof). But, now, in a way I'm glad it's gone. Because had I seen students walking past metal detectors, I think it might have broken my heart.

And things have gotten much worse nowadays. The violence level has been turned up a few notches. We must do something to make public school children safe again. Everyone isn't as fortunate as you. Everyone can't flee. We must start from where our feet are planted. And religion can't hurt.

Originally Posted by Karolina

I'm in the East coast, grew up in the inner-city actually. Went to private school to avoid getting stabbed or shot at in school.

The madness has gotten worse. Look at it from a sport's angle. When a franchise is failing, changes are necessary and indeed made. The owners of teams won't fire themselves or take any blame. They remove the managers or trade for better players.

The public school system is a big failure. Changes are necessary. The government won't admit to its failures. Changes are necessary. Religion might be the key players to turn the franchise into a winning one. Just because you are now safe doesn't erase the fact that kids are still being stabbed and shot.

Add a few schools for atheists so that the children (statistics will probably reveal that most of the non-believers will be highly intellectual students) who don't want religion pumped into their ears will have a haven. Again, win-win.

Originally Posted by Mike C

But Karolina's right, good education is about more than just having a religious bias in the school.

From a distance both you and her are correct. From a distance.

Karolina · #37 12-01-2009, 07:26 AM

Yes change is necessary, but it takes a whole lot more than saying a prayer to make that change. Have you ever sat outside a church parking lot and see the good Christians cursing and beeping at each other to get out of the way because they have to hurry in to say their prayers? It's bullshit.

Shelly · #38 12-01-2009, 07:42 AM

Who said anything about Christians? I'm talking religions--all.

You see, honey, point blank--here's the probem. Turning the mike off on a child isn't any solution. It's not even turning the other cheek. It's more like fleeing to the better, safer part of town without giving a shit about the people who couldn't get out.

Firefly · #39 12-01-2009, 08:54 AM

It's a nice thought that a school could take the time to educate the students on all religions, because it might help to develop more of a social tolerance to others' religions, but it would be a very time-consuming and difficult undertaking. Even if you say "all major religions," I'm sure that there would be a huge debate on which should be included. Scientology? Satantic cults? Wiccan?

I think that learning math and reading and writing and all those other essential life subjects still need to take precedent to any kind of religion class. I know, Shelly, that you're not saying that they shouldn't--but teaching about faith in schools (in my opinion) could be time better spent.

I am also keeping in mind that I grew up in small-town Minnesota, where metal detectors were those things that only needed placement at airports and jails. The worst things to happen was the "3 o'clock--flagpole" incidents and getting kicked off of a sports team for getting caught smoking behind the post office. So, I'm not sure what effect religion classes could have on a larger, more hostile school, in terms of keeping peace and such.

Karolina · #40 12-01-2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

Who said anything about Christians? I'm talking religions--all.

I can only talk about what I see.

You see, honey, point blank--here's the probem. Turning the mike off on a child isn't any solution. It's not even turning the other cheek. It's more like fleeing to the better, safer part of town without giving a shit about the people who couldn't get out.

Are you implying that I don't give a shit about others? Please point out where I have said that. You know nothing about me or what I do with my life so don't assume you do. At any rate, once again you are making a poor comparison of things. You can't equate turning off a mike on a preachy speech to people who can't get out of a bad area.

Shelly · #41 12-01-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

The worst things to happen was the "3 o'clock--flagpole" incidents and getting kicked off of a sports team for getting caught smoking behind the post office. So, I'm not sure what effect religion classes could have on a larger, more hostile school, in terms of keeping peace and such.

When a team goes 0-12 playing a yearly schedule consisting of twelve games, I'm not sure what effect a new manager and a few new players would have the next season. But things can't get any worse than the previous year. Things are that bad in the inner-city public school systems in the USA, and adding religion and prayer in the schools can't make things any nastier.

Originally Posted by Karolina

Yes change is necessary, but it takes a whole lot more than saying a prayer to make that change. Have you ever sat outside a church parking lot and see the good Christians cursing and beeping at each other to get out of the way because they have to hurry in to say their prayers? It's bullshit.

I realize you're young. But it's not a good practice to always be eager to pounce on Christians. All people use foul language. Even the atheists who post frequently on this site. Are they bad people? Of course not. Maybe they have bad habits when it comes to speaking. That's about it though.

Mike C · #42 12-01-2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Shelly

Cultivating virtues makes a person better, and therefore makes the entire world better.

The violence level has been turned up a few notches. We must do something to make public school children safe again.

I've mentioned before that my wife is head of a church school. The whole ethos of the school is about cultivating virtues and instilling values.

Unfortunately the school is in an area of significant economic deprivation - one of the 5 most deprived areas in the UK. The school can only do so much for these kids, sadly, and the experiences they have outside school are as damaging as the experiences in school are positive.

Over 50% of the kids that have 2 parents have a father in prison. Some of the parents are drug users, some of the mothers prostitutes.

We have a large immigrant community, some economic migrants from eastern Europe, some asylum seekers from various parts of the world. The school has a strict zero tolerance policy on bullying and racism. They fight a losing battle when attitudes at home are often fuelled by racism and hate.

A few weeks ago a kid was excluded for pulling a knife - with the intention of using it. He was 10. There have been several other violent incidents in the school.

You may decry metal detectors and security guards in schools, Shelly, and thankfully things haven't got that bad in my wife's school (ages 4-11), but while cultivating those values in our kids we have a responsibility to keep them safe, by whatever means. A kid's experience of education should only be limited by his aspirations and ability, not by his life expectancy.

Karolina · #43 12-02-2009, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

I realize you're young. But it's not a good practice to always be eager to pounce on Christians. All people use foul language. Even the atheists who post frequently on this site. Are they bad people? Of course not. Maybe they have bad habits when it comes to speaking. That's about it though.

I just love how you assume things Shelly. You have no idea how old I am. I could be 25 or 55. I've never stated my age. Please stop with the assumptions about me because you are just looking silly.

My statement was not about pouncing on Christians, but since I live in front of a Catholic Church this is what I see every Sunday. Church-going people who think they are holier than the rest fighting with each other to all get out of the parking lot at once and nearly hitting parked cars. Where's the peace and love?

This is why I don't buy your idea that prayer can stop the violence in the schools. It sure hasn't stopped the violence in the parking lots of churches.

Shelly · #44 12-02-2009, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Karolina

I just love how you assume things Shelly. You have no idea how old I am. I could be 25 or 55. I've never stated my age. Please stop with the assumptions about me because you are just looking silly.

My statement was not about pouncing on Christians, but since I live in front of a Catholic Church this is what I see every Sunday. Church-going people who think they are holier than the rest fighting with each other to all get out of the parking lot at once and nearly hitting parked cars. Where's the peace and love?

This is why I don't buy your idea that prayer can stop the violence in the schools. It sure hasn't stopped the violence in the parking lots of churches.

How I wish I had a nickel for every time I looked silly.

Peace and love starts within you, not with two jerks arguing in a parking lot.

How can you compare arguing idiots to kids being stabbed and shot? (Your own words)

MikeC, you're a lucky man to have a wonderful wife and daughter. They, as we used to say, "put their money where their mouth is." by their "doing." So hats off to them.

Turning off a mike (shutting down lines of communication) isn't any solution. Three words come into play: arrogance, control, and mismanagement. Both sides are guilty. And the only ones to lose out are the weak--in this case the teens.

Availability is a nice word. It leaves all kinds of doors open without the use of force.

Karolina · #45 12-02-2009, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

How I wish I had a nickel for every time I looked silly.

From the posts I've read, you'd be rich by now.

Peace and love starts within you, not with two jerks arguing in a parking lot.

Good thing I'm a peaceful person.

How can you compare arguing idiots to kids being stabbed and shot? (Your own words)

Simply because of the example those people are showing their kids. Kindness and respect start at home.

Turning off a mike (shutting down lines of communication) isn't any solution. Three words come into play: arrogance, control, and mismanagement. Both sides are guilty. And the only ones to lose out are the weak--in this case the teens.

She was pretty arrogant and controlling herself to go ahead and give that speech.

Daedalus · #46 12-02-2009, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by stonefly

Jesus died for my sins. That's not religion. It's the furthest thing from it. I have no use for religion, don't know anything about it, and don't want to know.

Did you know him personally? Were you having tea with him when he turned around and said to you, "Stonefly, I'm going to die for your sins now"? It is the height of ignorance that so many people believe all the crap in the Bible. There's more truth to Harry Potter.

The girl talked about the impact that God had on her life and gave him credit for her ending up at the top of her class. That's not religion. It is pure, unadulterated, unquestionable truth. No matter how you twist it, bend it or stretch it, it remains nothing more than her simple faith in God, too deep to be spoken in half truths.

I find it very helpful, while writing college assignments and seminar papers, to listen to AC/DC, Metallica, and Guns n' Roses. Wonder if I make class valedictorian, if I should mention that "satanic rock" (as so many religious people would have you believe it is) is my unadulterated, unquestionable method of getting good grades? Wonder how that would go down.

If you feel God, or the Easter bunny, or the Loch Ness monster inspired you to achieve good grades, kindly keep it to yourself. I don't care. The majority of the people in the class don't care.

Do you know that in most colleges in Ireland they don't let students wear football tops like Manchester United or Liverpool? Why? Because it incites hatred and bigotry. So, you don't mention how religion affects you or makes you a better person. Not in a school. Because that's incitement as well. Simple as. Keep your beliefs to yourself.

Shelly · #47 12-02-2009, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalus

I don't care.

Good. You know where the door is. Quietly, get out of your seat, head for the exit, and stop being a crybabying moron. The satanic room is across the hall. Just go in and speak your mind. Again, win-win.

Originally Posted by Karolina

She was pretty arrogant and controlling herself to go ahead and give that speech.

Don't know your age, but your mentality is that of a know-everything teen.

#48 12-02-2009, 08:32 AM

The overwhelming majority believe in God. Students are curious about such things. Taught well, it's one class that is guaranteed to provoke student interest.

And, given the centrality of the spirit ot our very existance, leaving out all forms of spiritual studies leaves a gaping hole in their education.

Daedalus · #49 12-02-2009, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by John Cat

The overwhelming majority believe in God. Students are curious about such things. Taught well, it's one class that is guaranteed to provoke student interest.

And, given the centrality of the spirit ot our very existance, leaving out all forms of spiritual studies leaves a gaping hole in their education.

Complete and utter horseshit.

Most academically-minded people do NOT believe in the exist of a divine being, because the more educated you become, the more you realise that religion is complete and utter manure. And I should know; I'm in a college with thousands of people. I know a hundred of them personally, and all of them don't believe in God, and those that may have some religious tendencies, tend not to have when the course is over.

Daedalus · #50 12-02-2009, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

Good. You know where the door is. Quietly, get out of your seat, head for the exit, and stop being a crybabying moron. The satanic room is across the hall. Just go in and speak your mind. Again, win-win.

Kindly, if I happened to be in a church. I'm not. I'm in a place of education, and religion has NO PLACE in education. Schools work with facts: maths, physics, chemistry, you name it, it's a fact. Religion is nothing but pure rumour. It has zero place in the field of academics. It is not fact.

#51 12-02-2009, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Complete and utter horseshit.

Complete and utter lack of manners.

Conversation over.

Daedalus · #52 12-02-2009, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by John Cat

Complete and utter lack of manners.

Conversation over.

Yes, I have a lack of manners. Comes from being a misanthrope. You'll get used to it.

#53 12-02-2009, 09:04 AM

Nope.

Karolina · #54 12-02-2009, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

Don't know your age, but your mentality is that of a know-everything teen.

I really don't understand why my age is so relavant to you. Shelly your only arguments are insults. At least I make points that you can't seem to argue with so you come back with name calling. Grow up.

Karolina · #55 12-02-2009, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by John Cat

The overwhelming majority believe in God. Students are curious about such things. Taught well, it's one class that is guaranteed to provoke student interest.

And, given the centrality of the spirit ot our very existance, leaving out all forms of spiritual studies leaves a gaping hole in their education.

The problem with teaching religions in schools is which ones do you teach?

Shelly · #56 12-02-2009, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Kindly, if I happened to be in a church. I'm not. I'm in a place of education, and religion has NO PLACE in education. Schools work with facts: maths, physics, chemistry, you name it, it's a fact. Religion is nothing but pure rumour. It has zero place in the field of academics. It is not fact.

Where has all the math, physics, and chemistry taken us thus far? Fact is, we are a push of a finger away from oblivion. A speech about Jesus (inside of a school or outside of one) who never harmed anyone should be the least of the world's problems. Why make a fuss over nothing?

Science, politics, and religion should be parts of the whole.

Daedalus · #57 12-02-2009, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Shelly

Where has all the math, physics, and chemistry taken us thus far? Fact is, we are a push of a finger away from oblivion. A speech about Jesus (inside of a school or outside of one) who never harmed anyone should be the least of the world's problems. Why make a fuss over nothing?

Science, politics, and religion should be parts of the whole.

No, they shouldn't. Again, science and politics (for the most part in politics) are based on hardcore fact. What is religion based on? The random stories of four men who may have been drunken fishermen, for all we know. Religion has no place in school. Keep it behind the doors of the churches, mosques, and synagogues -- where it belongs.

yoman3 · #58 12-02-2009, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Daedalus

I find it very helpful, while writing college assignments and seminar papers, to listen to AC/DC, Metallica, and Guns n' Roses. Wonder if I make class valedictorian, if I should mention that "satanic rock" (as so many religious people would have you believe it is) is my unadulterated, unquestionable method of getting good grades? Wonder how that would go down.

I'm sure they would be completely fine with it....

Originally Posted by Daedalus

If you feel God, or the Easter bunny, or the Loch Ness monster inspired you to achieve good grades, kindly keep it to yourself. I don't care. The majority of the people in the class don't care.

I'm sure the majority doesn't care, but who cares that nobody cares? It was a fucking valedictorian speech, whose specific purpose was to talk about how the valedictorian achieved academic excellence. If it was Metallica or the Loch Ness monster or Jesus, the student has the right to talk about it. The problem comes when the student starts preaching it.

So yes, if she did happen to say that "Metallica was my one and only inspiration," no one would care. It would only be when she stated "Metallica was my one and only inspiration, and it should be yours too. Metallica should be the only inspiration and of you have. Back in the year 1980 Metallica formed and saved us all from etc. etc. etc."

She would come off as a dick for "preaching" metallica. Of course I doubt her Mic would be cut off if she preached something as silly as the church of Metallica, but it becomes much more risqué when you talk about religion, politics, and other "taboo" subjects for that specific occasion.

There's a time and place to preach religion (ANY religion) or endorse a particular political party or ideology, but the school (public school) isn't the place to do it.

Originally Posted by Shelly

Where has all the math, physics, and chemistry taken us thus far?

And the award for the most ignorant question of the year goes to...

Originally Posted by shelly

Fact is, we are a push of a finger away from oblivion.

nope.

Originally Posted by Shelly

A speech about Jesus (inside of a school or outside of one) who never harmed anyone should be the least of the world's problems. Why make a fuss over nothing?

Because it is something. It's not the biggest something, but it is something. It's the something that's been keeping religion out of schools and politics in America for over 200.

Originally Posted by Shelly

Science, politics, and religion should be parts of the whole.

Not really. While you may believe that your religion is true, the majority of people in the world do not. Whether you like to hear it or not, religion is based on blind faith and not on facts. Science needs a hella ton of evidence to be considered valid, and Politics, while not as fact-based (unfortunately) as science, still needs to have some sort of logic to it.

Firefly · #59 12-02-2009, 10:54 AM

I remember when I was in elementary school, saying the words "one nation, under God" every single day. I never once had a problem with it. "God" in schools is not the problem that I see. The problem, I think, would be the further alienation of students that don't have the same faith as others may.

Do you really think that some parents wouldn't raise just as big of a stink as they have over this whole microphone thing, if schools started teaching about the Muslim religion in a neutral light? If they had to read and take tests on scripture and passages from the Qur'an? Learn that the Qur'an says how Moses, Noah, Jesus, etc., were all Muslim . . . and what if your child decided that he or she wanted to be Muslim after learning about it. I would think some people would find that terrible.

It's a point of view to look at, when you see the school's decision to turn off the mike. I think that talking about how God's love filled her heart was fine--but quoting Bible passages and talking about Christ's blood and death and such was a bit much to her point. What's would have been so wrong for her to have simply thanked God for his strength and love: The End.

Q Wands · #60 12-02-2009, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

It's a point of view to look at, when you see the school's decision to turn off the mike. I think that talking about how God's love filled her heart was fine--but quoting Bible passages and talking about Christ's blood and death and such was a bit much to her point. What's would have been so wrong for her to have simply thanked God for his strength and love: The End.

That is the crux of the issue. She could have made her point, simply and eloquently, without risk of offense (and let's face it, these days risk of anything is tantamount to the same thing in the eyes of the PC-mad law). Instead she chose to push the boat out a wee bit too far. It made the school uncomfortable. Why? Because they have to think about all the students, and all the parents who will be attending. It's not about their personal beliefs, but about what they perceived was reasonable for the occasion considering the audience.