Breaking rules

[stonefly]

I don't believe Brittany McComb's speech is a freedom of religion issue, nor a freedom of speech issue.

Whatever else you believe, none of us should forget that this country gained its independence through the efforts of people who broke rules and defied authority in the name of something higher and more valuable.

I believe the percentage of colonists who actively took part in the revolution was approximately three...3%.

Granting the fact that schools do have a legal right to control speech, we can look at other things as well. Brittany McComb was at the top of her class. She excelled. Valedictorians may very well choose as the theme of their speech the factors that played a part in their academic achievement. That was Brittany's choice.

Having made that choice, and having made an earlier choice to allow God's will full reign in her life, the die was cast. There was only one speech that Brittany could have made. In a spirit of cooperation, she may have agreed to leave out the parts of her speech falling within sovereignty of school officials. However, when faced with the reality of delivering a truncated version, she may have felt that she'd be selling out the God to whom she had surrendered her will.

Surrendering her will to God was the most important thing Brittany had ever done, and she knew it...knows it. Surrendering her God to the edict of the school board may have been, in the final analysis, impossible for her to do.

Brittany McComb didn't fail her God. She didn't fail herself, nor anyone. People of Brittany's caliber are assigned the fate shared by the patriots of our American Revolution. Ordinary people will remain beneficiaries, yet never understand the motives, of people like Brittainy McComb.

[Heartless]

Well said, unfortunately, the fate of this thread will inevitably be that of the original thread. Let's try to avoid that, please.

It's impossible for someone to ignore their beliefs if they have held them all their life. A petty rule will not change someone's beliefs. Who knows if Brittany was right in giving that speech. We cannot pretend to know whether she violated anything vital in attempting to give her speech.

[Gaines]

Before we put little miss manners McComb up for sainthood let's take a second and look what has been suggested here. She gave her life over to some deity and therefore cannot help herself but to espouse her beliefs in said deity? Unable to stop herself from making that speech? No more free will? No more ability to accept rules that run contrary to her religious beliefs? You could almost call that fanaticism. Sounds like that little valedictorian has reached the religious point of saturation. She guessed wrong.

Oh, before I forget. My thanks to the poster that critiqued an earlier post of mine. The suggestion that since I am here on the WB I should spend more time making sure my posts are of publishable quality is very enlightening. I look forward to the day I find their opus gracing the bookshelves of barnes and noble. As to the critique being of any help...no, not really. One does appreciate the effort and the fact they knew what a parody was.

Just giving credit where credit is due. Hope that helps.

[Firefly]

One of the arguments that I see popping up in her defense of defying the school's wishes of keeping certain material out of her speech is that she was valedictorian. I don't think that just because someone has done something well, they should get away with certain things. It's like saying that a police officer should be able to break the law because he or she has already done so much to help people.

Whatever else you believe, none of us should forget that this country gained its independence through the efforts of people who broke rules and defied authority in the name of something higher and more valuable.

Would you still stick with that mindset, stonefly, if she was someone who worshiped and preached about Satan during the speech? If that was her choice, do you think it should have been allowed for her to go on as long as she wanted to, quoting scripture from the Satanic bible and such? Or would you think that it was bad for her to defy the school when they asked her not to do that out of respect for the people who do not worship Satan?

[stonefly]

They asked her to write a speech. She did. She spoke her heart about something which had become the center of her being and something to which she credited her academic achievement. That is a relatively standard theme for a valedictorian's graduation speech.

The fact that it was God who had become the center of her being is what tripped her up. When she spoke truthfully, it carried her outside the boundaries of acceptability in 21st century America. Only a modified, less than truthful version would be accepted, according to school officials.

At first, she acquiesced. At the moment of truth, she remained true to her God and to herself. She broke the rules in doing so.

As far as I have heard, she is continuing the fight.

I question whether the school was legally bound to turn off her microphone.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

If the school was legally bound to turn off her microphone, the order did not originate from our Constitution.

Where did the order originate? Wasn't it an arbitrary decision on the part of school officials to censor her speech, and to cut off her microphone when she spoke uncensored, rather than speak falsely?

Behaving in a manner commensurate with the dictates of the powers that be is generally the safest course of action for all of us. Indeed, it is by far the most common course of action. Remaining true to the dictates of the powers that be is so important that when a young American valedictorian who has distinguished herself scholastically gives the credit to God, and praises God in her speech, she alienates herself from members of a writer's forum.

Brittany McComb carries on the fight for freedom of speech while we merely enjoy it.

Nothing has changed. Over two hundred years ago, three percent of the colonists fought to the death for what the other ninety seven percent lived to enjoy.

In the 21st century, I'd guess that maybe one per cent stand up for their constitutional rights, if that many.

Brittany McComb is a "one per center."

[Paco]

But the question is, would you so staunchly defend her right to sermonize if she were a Muslim calling for the killing of infidels? Can't you see that our government cannot have a role or even an opinion on a religious belief? Everyone is free to worship what they will, but no one is free to use the tax-payer's podium to further his/her religious beliefs. I helped pay for that microphone, and religiosity is not part of the curriculum.

[Q Wands]

I think Firefly has made a valid point. If someone was thanking Satan for their scholastic achievement, the very people who so staunchly defend Brittany McComb now would be baying for blood. But there is no difference.

And a valedictorian speech or address is a farewell statement. It is an opportunity to thank those people who have played some part in the valedictorian's achievement. As such, Ms McComb was entitled to thank God, if she felt he was a contributing factor in her success. But what a pity she didn't think it necessary to thank any of her teachers or fellow classmates for the part they played. Guess gratitude wasn't on the curriculum.

[stonefly]

Originally Posted by Paco

But the question is, would you so staunchly defend her right to sermonize if she were a Muslim calling for the killing of infidels? Can't you see that our government cannot have a role or even an opinion on a religious belief? Everyone is free to worship what they will, but no one is free to use the tax-payer's podium to further his/her religious beliefs. I helped pay for that microphone, and religiosity is not part of the curriculum.

No...they don't appear to be in any need of assistance...at least not from my point of view.

No, I don't see it. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..."

Who said the girl was furthering her beliefs? She did what they asked her to do...write a speech. Then they cut parts out and told her to stick to their version. She tripped them up. Good for her, I say.

I guess you can take some God out of America, but you can't take God out of some Americans.

Jesus died for my sins. That's not religion. It's the furthest thing from it. I have no use for religion, don't know anything about it, and don't want to know.

The girl talked about the impact that God had on her life and gave him credit for her ending up at the top of her class. That's not religion. It is pure, unadulterated, unquestionable truth. No matter how you twist it, bend it or stretch it, it remains nothing more than her simple faith in God, too deep to be spoken in half truths.

When a witness in a court proceeding is sworn in, the witness is asked if he swears to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Telling the whole truth, rather than half the truth, seems to be important.

She wrote the truth. They told her no. You may speak only half the truth. When the moment of truth arrived, she spoke the whole truth. The girl did nothing other than speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Many lies are told daily to American people. It's practically all we hear. Americans pay big bucks for lies. It's the truth people that people fear.

Let a girl get in front of a public microphone to speak the most important, fundamental truth that she knows and her mike get's turned off.

So...people don't like the truth and don't want any of their tax money being used in its electronic amplification.

Yet some people cheered when the girl spoke. When the cheers rang out, the mike went dead.

[Paco]

Well, there's the stone wall, never to be breeched.

[Q Wands]

If ignorance is bliss, there must be some very happy people around here. Think I'll go do something productive with my time like watch my dogs sleep.

[stonefly]

Originally Posted by Q Wands

I think Firefly has made a valid point. If someone was thanking Satan for their scholastic achievement, the very people who so staunchly defend Brittany McComb now would be baying for blood. But there is no difference.

And a valedictorian speech or address is a farewell statement. It is an opportunity to thank those people who have played some part in the valedictorian's achievement. As such, Ms McComb was entitled to thank God, if she felt he was a contributing factor in her success. But what a pity she didn't think it necessary to thank any of her teachers or fellow classmates for the part they played. Guess gratitude wasn't on the curriculum.

If y'all are satan worshippers, then yes, valid point.

I don't think that's true at all. I've never known anybody who bayed for the blood of a satan worshipper.

Nobody asked you to write the valedictorian speech for her. Your entire paragraph is a sketch of what you think an ideal valedictorian speech should cover.

I see how I could get bogged down responding to never ending, ever widening departures from the simple, central, truth.

No offense intended, but that last paragraph of yours is one of the best descriptions of mediocrity I have ever seen.

I only say that in self defense. I'm firing back in self defense. You throw mediocrity into this like it ought to get a response. That's the only honest response I can make.

Please tell me you'll look at that paragraph of yours and admit, "Yeah...that's some mediocrity, alright."

[yoman3]

There's a difference between "breaking the rules" to push out an oppressive government and "breaking the rules" by going against the school's order to leave out a preachy part of a speech that would just end up making a lot of people angry/uncomfortable at an event that was supposed to honor educational value with no religious connotation.

What she did was called "being a dick."

[Paco]

I'm gonna go watch myself sleep--I hope. Dogs don't like people watching them while they sleep. Bet you didn't know that.

[Firefly]

Out of curiosity, stonefly, do you think that people should have been obligated to listen to her speech? Do you think that they should have the right to not hear it, if they so choose to? By that I mean, would you think less of someone if they had kept the microphone on during it, and someone walked out?

[Q Wands]

Originally Posted by stonefly

No offense intended, but that last paragraph of yours is one of the best descriptions of mediocrity I have ever seen.

I only say that in self defense. I'm firing back in self defense. You throw mediocrity into this like it ought to get a response. That's the only honest response I can make.

Please tell me you'll look at that paragraph of yours and admit, "Yeah...that's some mediocrity, alright."

"No offense intended..." Shall I take that as a compliment then? Don't bother answering. Anyone who thinks facts are mediocre isn't worth listening to.

[stonefly]

I must be satisfying some deep need y'all have, because y'all keep askin' for more of the same.

I have to quit because it'll turn to fatigue, which ain't good.

Anyone who needs any clarification can find it in the posts I've made already.

[Firefly]

Sorry--I didn't see where you were talking about whether or not you thought it was right for someone to have walked out on the speech if the mic had been turned off. Which post was it that you said that?

[Janx]

Teenage rebels are tough. Till 10.30. Then they have to go home or their parents would get pissed.

[Karolina]

She could thank God all she wants for her achievements and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but her speech wasn't about thanking God. It was about attempting to convert people to her believes. It wasn't the appropriate place to do so. She wasn't fighting a fascist government.

Originally Posted by Paco

But the question is, would you so staunchly defend her right to sermonize if she were a Muslim calling for the killing of infidels?

That strikes me as a rather classic straw man argument.

Expressing the importance of God in one's life is a much different thing that calling for religious genocide.

If she wants to thank Jesus or Allah or the Cosmic Muffin, I don't see why not. If she wants to advocate murder, for any reason, that's a different story entirely.

Originally Posted by yoman3

There's a difference between "breaking the rules" to push out an oppressive government and "breaking the rules" by going against the school's order to leave out a preachy part of a speech that would just end up making a lot of people angry/uncomfortable at an event that was supposed to honor educational value with no religious connotation.

What she did was called "being a dick."

I think that anyone who would shut her up because they had a problem with her brief statement of religious beliefs and how they were the most important things that she took from her high school years is being an incredible dick.

And I'll bet that there were damn few of them.

[Shelly]

Originally Posted by John Cat

I think that anyone who would shut her up because they had a problem with her brief statement of religious beliefs and how they were the most important things that she took from her high school years is being an incredible dick.

And I'll bet that there were damn few of them.

I agree. And if students didn't want to hear her speech, all they had to do was leave the auditorium. And while they were walking out, they could have thanked satan for giving them strong and healthy legs to do so.

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Shelly

I agree. And if students didn't want to hear her speech, all they had to do was leave the auditorium. And while they were walking out, they could have thanked satan for giving them strong and healthy legs to do so.

What, because all non-christians are satan worshipers?

[yoman3]

Originally Posted by John Cat

I think that anyone who would shut her up because they had a problem with her brief statement of religious beliefs and how they were the most important things that she took from her high school years is being an incredible dick.

That wasn't a "brief statement of religious belief," that was preaching. Also, the school administration told her beforehand that that part of her speech was too much. They would do the same thing if it was any other religion, as well as if she were preaching a specific political ideology or anything else.

It's not like the administration just unplugged her in the middle of her speech without any warning; she knew that she wasn't allowed to say that.

Originally Posted by Shelly

I agree. And if students didn't want to hear her speech, all they had to do was leave the auditorium. And while they were walking out, they could have thanked satan for giving them strong and healthy legs to do so.

Somehow that's more offensive than the school cutting the student's speech off.

[Shelly]

Originally Posted by Firefly

What, because all non-christians are satan worshipers?

I didn't say that. But I'll say this. There are college professors in schools across the USA teaching all kinds of anti-religious nonsense in classrooms. And, in this case, an innocent teenage girl makes a harmless speech, and hell freezes over.

Originally Posted by yoman3

Somehow that's more offensive than the school cutting the student's speech off.

Why? What if they were satan worshippers (There are many in the USA). Then, the statement would be a truthful one. Do you want to bolster your argument by distorting the truth? You don't know what was in the minds of the objectors. Are you a mind reader?

[yoman3]

Originally Posted by Shelly

I didn't say that. But I'll say this. There are college professors in schools across the USA teaching all kinds of anti-religious nonsense in classrooms. And, in this case, an innocent teenage girl makes a harmless speech, and hell freezes over.

Just because someone is doing something wrong and not getting caught does not mean another person doing the same thing who gets caught is right.

Also, this girl was graduating from a public school. I don't know the specifics about these college professors, but I'm sure quite a few of them are part of a private school.

[Shelly]

Originally Posted by yoman3

Just because someone is doing something wrong and not getting caught does not mean another person doing the same thing who gets caught is right.

Also, this girl was graduating from a public school. I don't know the specifics about these college professors, but I'm sure quite a few of them are part of a private school.

Public school, so what. Years ago, in the public school system I went to, we respected each other's religions. Jewish holidays meant closed schools; Christian holidays meant no school. Nobody was at war with one another.

Did it ever cross your mind why so many American students leaving college despise their own country and even God? To me, that's offensive. These kids are being brainwashed by pig-headed professors..

[yoman3]

And nobody is at war with anybody...But letting kids off from school because of religious holidays is different from stopping a kid from preaching. It's the difference between letting kids pray in school and forcing them to pray in school.

Do you have any statistics between college graduates and their preference for their country/god? Also, do you mean despise god as in: hate it, or "despise" god as in: doesn't believe in it.

While I'm sure that there are some very impressionable college students that are fed their opinions from a select few, the majority of 18-24 year olds are probably old enough to look at the facts and determine their own ideology, and not just agree with the banter of "pig-headed professors." But I digress.

[Paco]

yoman3. If you will walk out of your house, I'm sure you will soon find a post or a stop sign to argue with. Same outcome. No points for logic.

[Shelly]

Originally Posted by yoman3

And nobody is at war with anybody....

You must be kidding. There's a war going on out there for a child's mind. And this incident happens to be one major battle.


You're right about forcing. Some are trying to force God right out of the picture.