Abortion

Oasis Writer · #1 05-02-2006, 01:18 PM

Well, I haven't seen this debate pop up yet, so if it has, merge the threads

But, I thought, since it doesn't hurt, what are your thoughts about abortion. Is it wrong, is it right? Is it killing, is it choice? Be prepared to debate, if someone is willing to go that deep into it. But, remember, clean if we can keep it that way.

Jay · #2 05-02-2006, 03:37 PM

We all have free will. If I have free will, I must be pro-choice. There is no such thing as not being pro-choice. How can any say there is not a choice? If you decide not to choose, you have still made a choice. I am pro-choice, and I always choose life.

Being a father of three, I have seen all three children's developing through various stages in the uterus. I have heard the heartbeats of all three children. Medically they all have the signs of a developing human lifeform. Even when they scared us with information that Aaron might have trisomy 21 (Downs Syndrome), we still treated him as human. I am personally against the termination of life for the unborn; they are the ones who actually have no choice in the matter. I am pro-choice, and I always choose life.

Oasis Writer · #3 05-02-2006, 03:42 PM

Very well said. I am against abortion myself fully. I'm going to stay out of the conversation though because we share the same views

Jay · #4 05-02-2006, 03:50 PM

Our state, Louisiana is getting very close to having a near full ban against abortion.

Oasis Writer · #5 05-02-2006, 03:52 PM

I think that is an awesome idea. I hope they go through with it. Oregon and Idaho are about the opposate.

Perfect_Paradox · #6 05-02-2006, 09:39 PM

I'm sorry... but this doesn't really seem like a decision you should be able to make.
This is about women, it has to do with a woman's body, and a woman's choice what she does with her body.

edit...
ok might as well fully elaborate.

This is an incredibly difficult issue - there is no black and white area. To imagine doing it myself is a heartbreaking thing. I couldn't even put myself in that position right now.
But what about you? What if you got your girlfriend pregnant.. what would you do? Even if you are against it, I'm sure the idea would cross your mind.
What if someone is raped? It's not like it was their fault because they had unprotected sex - it was forced, by someone they didn't even know. Should we force them to have that baby, still?

Like I said, not black and white.

However I believe the pro-life campaigners take things too far. I do agree that abortion should not be allowed in the third trimester (most definitely) and possibly the second trimester as well.
But in the first trimester - this fetus isn't even human shaped. It doesn't have a brain, it's about the size of your finger.. yet I see signs with full grown bloody and dead babies. That is not what it is.

My personal stance? I do not think it should be outlawed. It is a deep subject, and something that is hard to fathom for anyone who has not been in that situation before - and this is my other major beef with pro-lifers. Granted, I'm sure there are plenty who HAVE been there before - but the majority are people who have never been in that situation (men?)- how can they dictate what others should do? it doesnt seem right.

I'd like that option there.

Oasis Writer · #7 05-02-2006, 09:46 PM

Then honestly, you should have thought more about safety then taking a life.

I have three/four exceptions too disagreeing with abortion.

1) If the mother (and/or child) have more than a 50% chance of dying if continuing the pregnacy.
2) If the baby is going to be born a carret, or dead. (Carret being worst diseases that will eventually make it die)
3) If the mother was raped.

Only three for now. Otherwise, what gives you "the choice" to kill another life. Honestly, and I'm not pointing fingers, but I'm saying in general. It's still murder. That would mean you deserve the same punishments as any convict would get for murder. Esspecially when most abortions are done, they are when the baby has already started having a heartbeat, which, yes, makes it alive.

Two solutions ~

1) Should have been protected, or safer
2) Adotion

"Pro-choice" to kill someone because it's the mother's decision on what happens to the baby is a weak excuse.

Again, not pointing fingers, I said this was going to be a debate and I held back, let's see some fire.

Perfect_Paradox · #8 05-02-2006, 09:50 PM

haha, you are quick Oasis.
Read my edit. I dont think you had a chance to.

Perfect_Paradox · #9 05-02-2006, 09:52 PM

and I agree with you Oasis - it is certainly not a casual thing. It should not be there for people to just go "oh let's have unprotected sex. It's ok, we can always get an abortion"
That is completely wrong. That is not why I would want it still there.

Oasis Writer · #10 05-02-2006, 09:57 PM

lol - I am quick.

I have experience in these types of things. Okay, too answer your question, unless my girlfriend was raped, I would consider adoption if it we're this time in my life (15) but later on, like if I were 20 something, then it's my baby, there is no giving it up, I don't care if I'm in college or whatever. My reasons for why abortion is okay, are above, and those are the only ways I'll say, okay, to them. Otherwise, it's unexceptable. People need to learn from their mistakes, and if that means a baby, or an STD, then so be it. It's extremely harsh, but it's true. It's coming to where there is no order in this world, and everyone is going around, fucking what they can see, and then trying to cheat their way out of punishment.

But then again, that's how hell-risen our world is, no?

dogwood · #11 05-02-2006, 09:57 PM

I completely agree with perfect paradox. (and oasis, i hope you can read her edit hehe.) Oasis, you say it is murder - but as paradox said it is risky to speak without having experienced or considering the situation yourself. the whole "murder" issue is totally up to the person. i think differnt people have different views on what is murdering a baby and how developed it is, and that should be subjective. it also completely depends on the person's situation. as you mentioned, rape is an exception, and it is a huge one. that is entirely uncontrolled from the woman's part. even unprotected sex - it can be a foolish mistake, but if i think that if i were to get pregnant right now it would entirely change my whole life. that's the problem with the abortion depate - it is so specific to every situation and i think it's hard to make sweeping statements. anyway, i am obviously pro-choice.. and i guess we'll see where this discussion goes..

dogwood · #12 05-02-2006, 09:58 PM

damn, i am slow, i just posted my last post... and there's like two before me... heheh

i am curious oasis, when you say people are being stupid and fucking everything (which is partially true)... but what do you think of abortion in third world countries? birth control and abortion are much less available, so there is a hell of alot more unprotected sex and a hell of a lot more babies.. you think abortion should be in those contexts? our world is becoming overpopulated

Oasis Writer · #13 05-02-2006, 10:02 PM

Read before your post, you all seem to like to post after me

Again, think about it scientifically, if you're heart is beating, you are considered a living species. A baby's heart beats at about 3 months if a survivor. It doesn't matter how developed it is, because guess what, any teenager isn't fully developed until they are about 25 to 30. So, you are still considered a growing species. Does that make it right to kill you just because, "oh, well, I don't want you," or "it was a mistake"

Again, look at my first post, those are the only reasons that are really legitimate to have an abortion, unless someone says one that can sway me away.

Oasis Writer · #14 05-02-2006, 10:06 PM

While we are being overpopulated, we are also at one the highest death-rates in the times. We equal out, no matter what. We've been saying we're over-populated since the 30's in the US and probably longer in several other countries. As for third-world countries, I can not state anything on their behalf, because I do not know any solid facts on it. If I'm going to make a statement, I'm going to believe it 110%, I'm not going to run around throwing theories I don't believe and know. But, if you noticed, most third-world countries don't have abortions, because religion tells them many different things, so they keep many of them to grow into warriors and so on. Abortion isn't their problem, it's starvation, but that's a different debate.

dogwood · #15 05-02-2006, 10:06 PM

i never said it was as simple as "oh i don't want you" or "oh it was a mistake." i said it really depends on the situation. firstly, i do beleive teenagers are developed before 25 or 30. i am 18, and i know i won't be growing much more physically. emotionally yes, but i am still an adult. but anyway... don't twist my words! (sry... i have found too much of this on WB debates)

what i mean simply is that even if it is a mistake, and you are killing a human being, it is up to the person. it is a very VERY hard choice to make especially if you are young, and it is just about weighing alternatives. you have to weigh having a baby and changing your entire life/ruining your hopes and dreams, with killing a fetus. it depends what is important to the individual, and if they are even capable of caring for the child. that;s why i don't like these sweeping statements. try to think about it

dogwood · #16 05-02-2006, 10:09 PM

on the third world thing... it isn't just starvation. again, don't generalize. it depends on which country you're talking about. yes, starvation is a terrible problem in several third world countries, especially in Africa with droughts etc. but countries such as china and india are growing out of control; i don't know a lot of facts but I beleive that in china they are killing female babies because they have too many... or something.. killing them after they are born. i don't know, our world has issues

Oasis Writer · #17 05-02-2006, 10:17 PM

I have, but have you noticed two of the reasons I said before. One, adotion. Two, if the mother can't care to give birth to the baby without harm to herself, then it's okay. Now, I haven't twisted your words, what I've said is that if you look it up in any simple Biology class, any book will tell you, you physically stop growing at about 16 for girls, USUALLY, emotionally and mentally, for capasity and so on, you never stop growing, but, you usually will start your decline, or hit your max, just before 30. You never stop growing, but you aren't usually at your peak until about 30 or just before. So that would make you incomplete.
Secondly, read above again, or at my other posts, because one, unless it's rape, it's a poor excuse to go around saying, I can't care for this baby, when there is adotion agencies, almost every other block in any city. Otherwise, the person should have thought ahead. Should a teenager really be having sex? This is their punishment, they know better. Schools, parents, their job is too tell them the effects and aftermath of their actions, and if they are going to neglect them, then they're going to have to deal with the situation with a child at hand.
My best friend is on her second baby, she's 16, and she goes to school, watches both babies, and has enough time to work. She ruined her life? I wouldn't say so, she did hinder it and it's going to be extremely hard to get out of the hole, but that was her choice. You want a Pro Choice, pick not to have sex until you're ready to deal with a kid, otherwise, you're putting yourself in danger and shouldn't have the option to have a cheat code to get out of it.

As for the third world thing, again, I'm not commenting, because I'll need to look it up more. But again, we've been having over-population issues for several decades, and it will only get worse. But we also have a death-rate that is only going to skyrocket.

Perfect_Paradox · #18 05-02-2006, 11:14 PM

People need to learn from their mistakes, and if that means a baby, or an STD, then so be it. It's extremely harsh, but it's true.

This is what gets me the most frustrated.. I think.
Pro-lifers talk about the baby's rights, how it is a person, how it is murder. If so... then aren't you contradicting yourself here?
Isn't unfair for a child to be born in this world to a "parent" who has no way to possibly support it? Should that child go hungry, abandoned? Is that right?
But no, the person needs to learn from their mistake.
When you say that, you are not at all thinking about the baby, but the mistake of the "parent" - yet your argument is based on the rights of the child.
Doesn't make much sense to look at it that way...

(p.s. thanks for the rose. I do love a good debate <3)

Oasis Writer · #19 05-02-2006, 11:24 PM

Mistake in having something that is always going to be their responsiblity. As for parents, you didn't read back, because I've said it several times. ADOPTION!

That's a right for the child, to get a mother and father that can take care of it, while not being able to have there own, or the mother does not want to go through the pain. Whatever reason, adoption is a sidestep. But honestly, look at it, it is still murder, you can deny it up and down, but you know it's killing something with a heart beat. And humans all have them, so that is like killing a teenager or young adult, or even a senior. The only difference is that "Pro-choice" moms says its okay to kill them because they're small, insignificant, and can't say otherwise. Do you kill a deaf/blind/mute? They can't defend themselves half the time. I'm not contridicting a word I said. If you are going to have unprotected sex, AND EXPECT not to have the possiblity of a child, then you're ignorant and you deserve what you get, good or bad. As for the child, I wish it the best of my wishes, because it's parents like that, that just said, the ignorant people; it's those people that set examples, because people notice the good, but people state and pass the different. They'll continue to pass the different, "the abortion" rumor around until finally, it's too big to handle. It then doesn't become a murder of an unborn child, it becauses a genocide.

And man, that was fun

I'm off for bed now. Thanks for the great debate. I'll be back in the morning or so to see how it turns. Night

Perfect_Paradox · #20 05-02-2006, 11:34 PM

If you are going to have unprotected sex, AND EXPECT not to have the possiblity of a child, then you're ignorant

I certainly agree with this statement.

However I do not agree with comparing a fetus to a teenager or adult. They are pretty much uncomparable (especially in the first trimester - which is the only time period I'm for.)
A teenager has memories, feelings, relationships. A fetus, if its brain is developed at all, is hardly aware enough of its surroundings (again, in the first trimester) to be considered the same.
I'm sorry... I just cant see that.

Should we call the killing of a bug murder as well? It has a heart, and it is alive. So to practice what you preach, we should not, under any circumstances, kill ants, spiders, whatever else?
(NOT comparing a bug to a human fetus, btw. Just comparing the theory)

And yes, the option of adoption is there. It is a good one, and it should be used. This does not mean that the life of an adopted child will always be happy-go-lucky... there are always problems. But it is a good option, you are right.
But that does not justify the banning of abortion. Should we get rid of birth control, then, because there is always adoption? (yes, heartbeat story... see my idea above)

Annd.. that's all I have for right now.
Goodnight Oasis, see you in the morning :]

Oasis Writer · #21 05-02-2006, 11:44 PM

You are searching too deep into the theary sweetie. I heard a Chiness Proverb once that went something to the extent of, "Killing of the flesh is killing a spirit, while killing of a shell is food" Something along the lines as we kill animals because we need those nutriants and all that jazz. Even animals eat off the dead ones. That's the food chain. But what do we do with those dead babies? Most the time, we burn then, or we stick them in the trash, or to be buried. That's a waste, and no animal can grow from it. HA - I totally just lost everyone. Thank you China.

Now, about your Happy-Go-Lucky statement, I about damn-near broke a gut. Who, hoenstly, answer this with a straight face, on this planet has ever had a Happy-Go-Lucky life, famous or not? Thought so. It doesn't matter who you're with to learn life's leasons, you're still going to be kicked and punched and you're still going to get scars. That's life. Welcome to it everyone. But, what we are debating is that we are not giving these unborn children a chance to live that life.

Now, as for complete banning of abortion, ONCE AGAIN

Look at one of my first posts. I said, there were exceptions. If we ban it, then those exceptions become nul and void, therefore causing more problems then to start.

And yes, I'm off for tonight, I'm surprised actually, I haven't really had to try yet, this is just my pistol, I haven't pulled out the rest of my arson

Thanks everyone, this made my.....1 AM.

Night.

solecistic · #22 05-03-2006, 01:50 AM

I have a question for anyone who is pro-life (and like JHarrison, I can play word games, too. I am pro-life. Everyone is pro-life. No one is "anti-life"; that is a ridiculous idea, but so are most politically themed titles that we slap onto ourselves and each other).

Why does it matter whether the child is the result of a rape?

Why shouldn't the child of an unwilling sex partner be allowed to live? Why would you value a life that was created by mistake more than one created by an actual crime? If you are all about the rights of the fetus, then give the fetuses equal rights.

I think that anyone who is "pro-life" but makes exceptions is a hypocrite. Mother's life is in danger? Why do you value her life more than the baby's? The child has more life potential, and that idea is sacrosanct to many who are asked whether they would first save a small child or a middle-aged woman from drowning. Rape? Since when is it the child's fault who copulated with whom and under what circumstances? Diseases? We don't kill people with diseases, why would we abort them?!

If you're against abortion, be against it all the way and quit picking and choosing when your morality applies.

My personal opinion is that abortion shouldn't be a legal matter at all. If you are against abortion, don't have one. There's no reason to ban a medical practice when no one is forced to have an abortion.

Would I have one if I became pregnant tomorrow? Probably. Would it be a harrowing experience? Almost certainly. But it's a choice I have the right to make. No lawmaker has the right to tell me I have to have a baby.

I don't think that abortion ought to be used as a form of birth-control. I think it is a serious procedure that can seriously affect your health overall - which includes your ability to purposefully get pregnant later in life. I practice safe sex with my fiancee - we used condoms until I got on the pill again, and we have both been tested for STDs. I think safe sex is the first step. But you are absolutely out of your mind, in my opinion, if you expect forcing a pregnancy on a woman to be a way to "teach a lesson" to her. That shows that you have no true feelings for the potential life in the fetus. Rather, you have a blatant disrespect for the woman who must have been very naughty to get herself into such a precarious situation as having a fertilized egg! I'd suggest you get your priorities straight.

And on another note. If we are to give rights to blobs of tissue, next we will have to give rights to the spinach we pick to put in our salads. And frankly, I don't need any debates over my choice of veggies.

Oasis Writer · #23 05-03-2006, 06:58 AM

Seems someone is pointing a post at me. Okay ~ Let's see how I can do. Teaching a lesson, you looked way to far into it. That's a form of rape, end of story. I don't have to go further with that. Lawmakers ~ Yes, don't have the right to make your choices, but that doesn't give you the right to kill someone (unborn or not). That's saying murder is okay and encouraged, in which, let's all go out and kill someone then. How would the world work, think about it. I agree with safe sex, and that's the way it should be. As for abortion in birth-control, that's unsafe and could damage the mother. I'm already running out of time, so I might as well wrap this up before Sir get's angry at me.

lmao - think about your last note, that's rediculous, and quite funny. A life, or a piece of veggies. Seems you either think to shallowed, or too deep, but never at one.

lol - I've said my piece, and it still seems no one has come up with a reasonable arguement about why they can kill another life.

As for valuing a mother's life over a childs, think deeper about it. Without the mother, the child has a high likelihood of dying itself. As for rape, that's a forced pregnacy, not a choice. As for disease, which would you rather have, a suffering baby that will die, no matter how spendy your efforts are, or to keep it from suffering?

I don't have all the answers, and right now, more than ever because I'm being forced off, so I'll have to continue my rants later

Hypocrite, eh?

We're all hypocrites dear, there isn't one person on this planet that's not. Prove me wrong, because I haven't found one being that is, and I know no one else has either. We all make exceptions to the rule, even if it's for someone you love, we all say, "Well, okay." That's hypocritical. You're changing your natural patterns or believes, even if for a second.

Jay · #24 05-03-2006, 02:29 PM

Here are the number of chrosomes forn each of the following genetic makeup, of various life forms.

human-46
dog-78
onion-16
horse-64
rat-42
sheep-54
tomato-24
hedgehog-46
spinach-12

Looks like after the unification of sperm and ovum to form a zygote, human life has the same amount of chromosomes as a hedgehog, but 34 more than that spinach. So I can not see the comparison between the plant's zygote being incased in a seed, and the mammal's zygote being in the uterus for deveolpmental stages.

Oasis Writer · #25 05-03-2006, 02:34 PM

*cough cough* Pay attention in the back of the row please students

, important matter

Brandonsb · #26 05-03-2006, 05:00 PM

It is all very difficult to really say. The thing is, if a women got pregnant in the first place, it's usually because they made a mistake and are now just trying a way to get out of responsibility. On the other hand, rape victims who get pergnant didn't make any mistakes, so they should be able to not have to live with something they didn't want in the first place and was forced upon them. But then the matter of human life comes in and it becomes even more difficult to decide for either way. I guess I stand that abortion should be legal for rape victims, but then you get people who lie just to get out of taking responsibility for their own mistake.

kal · #27 05-03-2006, 05:09 PM

It is not a casual thing, but out lawing it is horrendous and every day I think about it I am so glad I live in the UK. You call yourselves the land of the free and you restrict the choice to live or die.

If I couoldnt raise my child right, I would have an abortion. I'm for it, if thats what is required. Definitly not as a method of contraception but it is nessecary. If it's out lawed, then what happens to the people in all your exceptions, they are forced to live, and possibly be resented, hated and have a terrible life.

It is not a governments place to dictate, it should be decided on the merits of each case, each woman talking to trained people about it and then coming to a descison but it should never be a matter of law. It's simply cruel and heartless, as you may say abortion is but I think it's terrible that peoples bodies can be goverened so.

kal · #28 05-03-2006, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Oasis Writer

and it still seems no one has come up with a reasonable arguement about why they can kill another life.

to me and many people I know and have dsicussed this with. It's not a life untill it is born, or you decide to give birth to it, to commit yourself to it.

Cancer is a group of cells you cannot stop gorwing, which eventually take over and destroy you. Pregnancy is not completly different.

Jay · #29 05-03-2006, 07:39 PM

A mutation of a person's tissue DNA is a cause for cancer, this deals with a single person's 46 chromosomes. With a new human zygote, it is created by the combination of 23 chromosomes, from the sperm (spermatozoon), and 23 chromosomes, from the ovum. They combine to make 46 chromosomes. The first step in cancer occurs in mitosis. This mitosis process occurs all of the time with our cells. The first step in a human zygote is meiosis. This meiosis occurs only when a sperm and ovum unite. Meiosis is similar to mitosis, but it is not the same. I hope that have not started teaching in Biology that cancer development is similar to human zygote development. The processes are very different.

Oasis Writer · #30 05-03-2006, 08:00 PM

Hey all, I'll let this debate run wild for a little while. You've all heard my side, I'll let fresh blood run free and see what happens. If you want an opinion from me, state it, I'll still be around and I'll reply if asked too. Otherwise, I'm going to hide from it for a few days