F*ck the edit

[simply_words]

The edit
is not what the mind
or heart
intended to say

The edit
is a sales gimmick
caught up
in its own logistics

Fuck the edit
I say
maybe then
just maybe
the cream will rise

[FireHill]

How does the cream rise if you don't edit it? I guess I disagree. The edit is where the craft is. As for the poem, so-so. Kinda in your face and blunt. Still, the first stanza was pretty good; by adding "the mind" to that phrase it sets up something that could be built on. Sure, the edit isn't what the heart meant, but if the mind also didn't mean it, something weird is going on. You should explore that.

[Ink]

You're telling me your heart has never stuttered on words?
Mine has.

I would critique, but since you evidently won't edit, I don't see the point.

[simply_words]

Funny you were the first person to chime in Fire...it was reading several of your threads that made me write that. You're so caught up in trying to find the 'perfect' words...it blind sides the art.

You and Ink both spectacularly missed the point.

Give ten people two minutes to write a poem and who the hell knows who will do the most good for the most people. Give someone a day, two days, three days of editing and there will be a clear pattern every single time.

The edit most certainly is not where the craft is...unless of course it's Steven King's editor that's the true genius.

Originally Posted by FireHill

How does the cream rise if you don't edit it? I guess I disagree. The edit is where the craft is. As for the poem, so-so. Kinda in your face and blunt. Still, the first stanza was pretty good; by adding "the mind" to that phrase it sets up something that could be built on. Sure, the edit isn't what the heart meant, but if the mind also didn't mean it, something weird is going on. You should explore that.

[simply_words]

You're picture is interesting. That's about it really.

And no, my heart has never stuttered on words. It can't speak. It can't lie. Only feel.

Originally Posted by Ink

You're telling me your heart has never stuttered on words?
Mine has.

I would critique, but since you evidently won't edit, I don't see the point.

[Ink]

Don't throw your own metaphor back at me.

Missing the point doesn't exist in poetry. Each to their own interpretation. We may have missed your intended message, but that is your fault entirely. Having your feedback, re-reading, I like it a lot more.

I agree wholeheartedly with your message -'The edit most certainly is not where the craft is' - but there is nevertheless craft in the edit. Personally, I never edit a poem once it's gone up on the forums, I never re-post. Why? Well, I've learnt for next time, no point changing this one. But the way you worded your poem lead me to believe you write down the first words which come to your head every time, the tone is so...aggressive.

I do love the second stanza though.

[FireHill]

I didn't miss the point at all, I just disagreed. I don't know about you, but I'm not here merely to get praise and accolades for my poems. I'm here to learn a craft. To craft means to work with something, not to vomit something out full formed. Only the rare genius can do that, and then not even consistently. My opinion of course.

Oh, also, how is trying to find the right words "blind siding" an art that is entirely made of words? Are you saying it neuters the passion? I say without the right words, the passion is not conveyed; it will work for the author, but not for the reader. At that point, you're better off keeping it to yourself.

[simply_words]

I say without the right words, the passion is not conveyed; it will work for the author, but not for the reader. At that point, you're better off keeping it to yourself.

All your poems reach every reader do they? Amazing. I'm surprised that you actually need to be here at all fire. Bravo...

Perhaps some people just prefer to be a little less scientific and a little more hands on. In the meantime...I'll continue to vomit things out full formed.

For the record, you're still missing the point.

[Devon]

Give ten people two minutes to write a poem

What if these ten people can't write poetry to save their lives?

I liked this poem, and I agree with it . . . to a certain point. People do tend to over-edit things (sheesh, do I know that all too well!) and then sometimes the meaning, what the author intended, is lost beneath the whole "Oh, I have to get this perfect in order for it to sell."

Feels aimed toward those who aren't necessarily not willing to work with the craft of prose or poetry to get better at it, but rather those who would rather have meaning trump near-perfection. Though both of those could certainly go hand-in-hand, if you learn the craft correctly. And that's why I disagree with the last . . . um . . . stanza? (Tells you how much i crit poetry, eh? )

Overall, I liked it. In your face, yes. But I tend to like those types of writings.

[maidahl]

I don't have to agree with it to be obsessed with this..

The edit
is a sales gimmick
caught up
in its own logistics<--oh my lord. I keep thinking about this stanza. It's good.

[KBR]

I struggle with the very things this poem talks about. When is something analyzed to distraction, and when is it prudent to make a change?

For me, it's the critique. If I struggled with the very section that they are discussing, then, a fresh perspective can help.

If I can't see it, then, the poem stays intact.

I've lived long enough to know that if you slam the needle to either end of the continuum, then, there are issues. Between never make a change and dither with it for days on end, there's a happy in between.

Nevertheless, I loved the poem simply!

[simply_words]

A perfect blend KBR...well summed up!

[simply_words]

That's the part I felt the most about.

I seemed to have kicked the editing hornets nest over...they're stinging me all over

Originally Posted by maidahl

I don't have to agree with it to be obsessed with this..

The edit
is a sales gimmick
caught up
in its own logistics<--oh my lord. I keep thinking about this stanza. It's good.

[simply_words]

What if these ten people can't write poetry to save their lives?

I totally see that...BUT...Something still may pop out in their words that is just so real that it touches someone else who is not so great in the writing process...

Something 'badly written' is still written, was still meant and felt at the time of creation.

I see a lot of critiques on here saying "you should build on this part..." etc. To me, that kills the art. It is art. A painful one at times. I've never looked at a painting and said "It's nice. I get it. But I'd like to see more of that cottage in the background. Oh, and I wish the colours were more vivid on that old lady's dress..."
We just accept it as what the artist has created (in our eyes).
I've swam too deep now, the moon shimmer seems to be fading and there are sharks smelling blood. Sleep beckons. Peace all. x

[FireHill]

Originally Posted by simply_words

All your poems reach every reader do they? Amazing. I'm surprised that you actually need to be here at all fire. Bravo...

Perhaps some people just prefer to be a little less scientific and a little more hands on. In the meantime...I'll continue to vomit things out full formed.

For the record, you're still missing the point.

I said in that very paragraph you quoted from, I'm here to learn. Obviously I'm not writing perfectly. But if you're against editing, it makes me wonder why you're here.

Maybe I am confused, though. Are you saying fuck the edit, or fuck the critic? If you meant the latter, if you meant fuck any outside meddling, then I guess I can take back much of what I said. Though if that's how you really feel, you really are in shark infested waters, posting poems on an internet form

[simply_words]

Originally Posted by FireHill

I said in that very paragraph you quoted from, I'm here to learn. Obviously I'm not writing perfectly. But if you're against editing, it makes me wonder why you're here.

Maybe I am confused, though. Are you saying fuck the edit, or fuck the critic? If you meant the latter, if you meant fuck any outside meddling, then I guess I can take back much of what I said. Though if that's how you really feel, you really are in shark infested waters, posting poems on an internet form

No no no. All for the critique. I am saying...sometimes...fook the edit. Trying to create perfection is 90% of the problem in writers block. I've found that screwing convention and rolling with it provides more free flow.

We just see it very differently. My example of the painting was the best way I could sum it up. "I like that painting but would like to see more colour in that old lady's dress". Why? What if that's exactly how the dress looked? That's what I'm saying about editing. Sometimes...it rips out the reality of the piece. The truth. I'm also now very aware that I seem to have created a vision of an old lady in a dress and I'm arguing with myself about it.

I really enjoy most of your work Fire. The other day, when I offered my advice on your water/river/earth poem, I mentioned using the word 'flow'. You said, to paraphrase, that although it was a good idea it was 'too easy'. I just wonder why? I get that sometimes things need to be flowered -- but always? Not sure on that.

[iDrew]

At the start of the thread where you say about giving x amount of people x amount of time to write a poem to see what emerges then claiming that through the editing process the results would become predictable, and I presume you’re referring to style. I think that’s what yer saying, but I disagree. If a writer has found his ‘voice’ then that will be evident from the start and the edit will serve its true purpose of fine tuning and crafting the work.

But I have to confess I’m confuddled with what you’re saying. I may be wrong ‘cos you seem to be wanting it both ways (said the actress to the bishop!). In the poem you’re claiming that the edit is killing the true essence of the poem. The instant. Probably the most ‘instant’ art form is photography, yeah. I did a little photography at school and we shot through different f-stops for depth of field and different shutter speeds. In the darkroom again exposure was through different f-stops and at different times. Then there was cropping, burning, masking, in short editing. Editing the instant. Manipulating the instant for the best possible result. It’s the same with the painting of the dress as the artist would have created a palette to find the right colour he is looking for, would have added shade and contrast to form the image how he wanted it. A kind of editing would have taken place. We can look at the dress and want a different shade of colour just as we could look at a line of poetry and want a comma. That’s critique, that’s not editing.

I don’t know about writers block, but I’m not sure you can lay the blame of that on editing. What about running out of ideas or being uninspired? If I can’t think of anything to write I don’t write, but I don’t give it a name like a disease instead I just move on to something else in life. I do agree though that over editing will kill the poem, but editing is as much a skill as the writing and knowing when to stop is a key part of that skill.

Now, if what you are saying is that the edit kills off the poet’s original intention by adding poetic devices in order to show off then your poem is rather good, although I would add, in the form of critique, that the final stanza makes this point slightly ambiguous. If that’s not what you’re saying then the poem needs a damn good edit for clarification purposes.

Am I getting close to understanding ‘cos I just think I’ve sprained my brain.


xDrew

[maidahl]

^Your crits are pretty amazing. Always. Hope the brain sprain doesn't spread.

[simply_words]

Now, if what you are saying is that the edit kills off the poet’s original intention by adding poetic devices in order to show off then your poem

That's exactly what I am saying and is summed up in the second stanza:

The edit
is a sales gimmick
caught up
in its own logistics

[iDrew]

Cool - got it. But then do you need S3?

or should S3 become a new S1?

Which is an edit, is it not?

I'm a cow I know.


xDrew

[KBR]

Is this an article for the quarterly?
To edit or not to edit. That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous critique,
Or to take arms against a sea of edits
And by opposing end them.

[simply_words]

Genuis

[simply_words]

Yes, that would be an edit. So I can't do it. Even if I wanted to. Ha. It's like being locked out of your house and seeing the keys on the inside doormat. Can't...quite...reach...

Originally Posted by iDrew

Cool - got it. But then do you need S3?

or should S3 become a new S1?

Which is an edit, is it not?

I'm a cow I know.


xDrew

[peadar]

My own feeling is that an edit should be done if needed to clarify what you were trying to get across(the feeling).

[simply_words]

My own feeling is that an edit should be done if needed to clarify what you were trying to get across(the feeling).

I totally agree. But, on the rare occasion (especially with smaller pieces) that a perfect blend of emotion and words have fell from you onto the page - then they should left alone. To edit them in a 'clear' frame of mind is cheapening it in my mind.

I once wrote a twenty line poem about a break up. I wrote it half an hour after it happened. Its not a masterpiece, but I can't dare to tamper with its authenticity by editing in poetic trickery. It wouldn't be the art that I created in the moment. It's precious to me for that very reason. The same way a child could give you something that they held dear, like a comfort blanket or similar. They want to give it to you to make you feel better at the same time as sacrificing their own need. That blanket, in that moment, means more than a gazillion bucks in your bank. It's real life in real time and that's what I think editing CAN remove (by no means always). Two days later the blanket is just a fond memory and we would all prefer the gazillion bucks in the bank...which I guess is the edit (perfection). Being able to live the memory, in real time, over and over, is what I think a truly authentic unedited poem can achieve.