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To All Ye Poets…

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  #1  
Old 07-24-2014, 02:24 PM
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Your poems that rhyme are most annoying,
the ancient language, false and cloying.

I say to thee, all would-be bards,
they are the stuff of greeting cards.

With “ye” and “thou” and shoehorned words,
they’re little more than gilded turds.

Spare us the pain, yourself the time,
and shed the chains of ancient rhyme.

Write more like you speak and think,
and then perhaps your poems won’t stink.

Try verse unfettered, hear my plea—
there is no cost, in fact, it’s free.

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Old 07-24-2014, 03:51 PM
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It's because of attitudes like yours that I am moving on.

The turnover on this site is amazing.

And that's why.

Your writing this poem, coupled with your disparaging comments in another thread saying, essentially, the same thing, is an act of breathtaking immaturity. Calling other people's work shit? I'm amazed that the mods let that go. Maybe even they've given up on this site.

Come to think of it, I think I'm the only person here who was writing sonnets in Elizabethan vocabulary and syntax, so I guess you're writing the above poem about me, calling my poems "gilded turns". I have never, on any writing site - and I've been on a number of them - seen one writer post a piece of writing ridiculing the work of another.

If I weren't already on my way out, this would certainly convince me to move on.

You and a few others who make it so miserable here for people who have a different approach than you do are culling the population and then wondering why the site is so quiet - and, oh yeah, even YOU'RE leaving, by the sound of something you wrote in another thread. In another, you talk hopefully about new people coming in all the time, so maybe that's what you're up to, trying to drive out writers you disapprove of and waiting for others you do.

The traffic here is low and the turnover is high, and if you wonder why it's like that . . . have a good long look in the mirror.

And grow up.

Last edited by Lon Palmer; 07-24-2014 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 07-24-2014, 05:08 PM
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lon Palmer View Post
The traffic here is low and the turnover is high, and if you wonder why it's like that . . . have a good long look in the mirror
Heh. I'm fine with looking in the mirror. At present, the poetry here is awful, and there's little I can do about it. That's the nature of writing sites that are open to anyone. The idea that I could somehow scare away or make things "miserable" for anyone who has an iota of talent and who is half-way serious about their writing is ludicrous.

It's organic -- and all you can hope for is that some number of people with talent and something to add will stumble across the site -- and that it will improve from there. It's not my job to help people polish their poetic turds, especially if their intent is to merely whine about how they feel or otherwise showcase their work.

A few people had good things to say about your sonnet. That's not enough for you? Otherwise, there has been an ongoing debate over the merits of trying to emulate archaic styles. A lot of people think that it's contrived and phony -- I'm just one of them -- so deal with it.

But in the end -- WB is a place for amateurs. That's OK -- I'm one of them too. But people with true talent, drive and purpose and a desire to be published don't hang around writing sites looking for opinions from other amateurs and bad poets. At best, it can give you a baseline read and let you know whether or not you are delusional -- but that's about it. Some people can't even get that out of it. SO GET REAL, Lon. This is all playtime and no one except you and a handful of people on the internet gives a shit about your poetry.

Last edited by JoeMatt; 07-24-2014 at 07:23 PM..
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
JoeMatt, I think you have to keep in mind that things like rhythm are part of the very definition of poetry. Let's look at the first stanza from your recent post in the poetry section:



This has no rythm, no stressed/unstressed syllables, no metre, no phonoaesthetics... It is, for all purposes, prose. Putting it into shorter lines doesn't make it poetry. Short lines are not even part of the definition of poetry. The above quote reads like a paragraph with irregular line breaks, and that's all.

If you want people to write poetry like yours you basically want people to dispense with the very things that form the definition of poetry and write as if it's prose. That's your call, but what you've posted in the 'poetry' section is almost completely devoid of the things that make poetry poetry. Yes they have some figurative language, but so too does prose, so this isn't a distinguishing feature between the two genres.
So you are the great arbiter of what is poetry and what isn't? That's hilarious.

And if you think there is no rhythm or nothing photosynthetic in what I've written, then sorry, you are absolutely tone deaf.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:27 PM
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What you did was just plain rude - and you continue it that rudeness.

How can you be so rude?

Writing sites are places for people to develop in a supportive environment, not a place to be judged and have their work called shit.

Fortunately I have found a well-trafficked site where writers put aside their prejudices to help each other become better writers and people like you would not be tolerated.

I suppose I could write a sonnet about people who write i. Ridicule of those who write in free verse, but then I'd be like you.

Last edited by Lon Palmer; 07-24-2014 at 07:44 PM..
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Old 07-24-2014, 09:17 PM
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
Take away your linebreaks and it's prose. Be honest, am I wrong?
I'm guessing you know that a lot of damned good poets write poetry that would read like prose if you took away the line breaks.

"The fog comes on little cat feet. It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on."

The Fog, by Carl Sandberg:

The fog comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on.

The line break has an effect on the reader. It controls emphasis, meaning, rhythm, flow etc. This is a no-brainer. And certainly, not all prose could simply be carved up into lines and qualify as poetry.

And let's look at your Wikipedia definition:

Poetry is a form of literature that uses aesthetic and rhythmic qualities of language—such as phonaesthetics, sound symbolism, and meter—to evoke meanings ...
Note where it says rhythmic qualities. And you know as well as I do that free verse does not use consistent meter.

Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
like your above usage of photosynthetic, which doesn't even make sense.
Auto correct. See above.

Originally Posted by eripiomundus View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, tone and rhythm are different things entirely. A completely tone deaf person can have perfect rhythm... another case of you showing ignorance?
I was using "tone deaf" in the metaphorical sense -- but given how tone and rhythm are related, it was a less than successful application.

Last edited by JoeMatt; 07-25-2014 at 02:57 AM..
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lon Palmer View Post
What you did was just plain rude - and you continue it that rudeness.

How can you be so rude?

Writing sites are places for people to develop in a supportive environment, not a place to be judged and have their work called shit.

Fortunately I have found a well-trafficked site where writers put aside their prejudices to help each other become better writers and people like you would not be tolerated.

I suppose I could write a sonnet about people who write i. Ridicule of those who write in free verse, but then I'd be like you.
I write a poem with rhyme and archaic language, and this is the reaction I get. You just can't please some people.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:21 AM
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I don't mind poetry rhyme
Tell what's in your heart,
even if it's a stinking fart.
Bend the rules; hell, break the rules!
Get your point across . . . no holds barred!
Write it like you own it; type it like you mean it!
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:44 AM
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And that's the pronouncement of a senior moderator on this bullshit? The final surreal touch.

I guess that explains why this site is such a raging success.

I'm done.

Last edited by Lon Palmer; 07-25-2014 at 05:59 AM..
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:49 AM
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I weep for humanity.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeMatt View Post
This is all playtime
If you see it as playtime, that's all it will ever be to you.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiskers View Post
If you see it as playtime, that's all it will ever be to you.
That was probably a bit of an overstatement. But it was more of a comment about much of what goes on here in the poetry section -- not about any potential value that the board might have. As to whether or not I take my poetry seriously, people can read my work and decide for themselves.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:16 AM
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The poem does a really good job of expressing an opinion using humor, irony, metaphor and word play. Perhaps the biggest irony is that it is probably the best rhyming poem I've read here. That makes it especially silly to criticize the author using one of his free verse poems as an example.

I'm sure there have been poems written making fun of free verse. That's what I write, and if someone posted something like that here, I'd take it as a lark. It's funny how some people take themselves so seriously.

Last edited by E. Zamora; 07-25-2014 at 09:21 AM..
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:48 AM
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Miss Edna St. Vincent Millay's Renascence has old-fashioned speak and rhyme, it is beautiful, simply and perfectly.

Taking our work to heart is understandable, poets have such heart.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:08 AM
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It's a long poem Pandora, and with the exception of an instance "whence" it sounds like it could have been written yesterday.

I take the content and meaning of my poems to heart. Format and style, not so much. And the idea that archaic language is contrived is shared my many poets. This poem is simply a commentary on that.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
I'm sure there have been poems written making fun of free verse. That's what I write, and if someone posted something like that here, I'd take it as a lark.
It would never occur to me to write something so desperately immature and post it on a writers' site where it is some other people's preferred form.

This is a workshop, in essence, and comparing other people's work "gilded turds" hardly makes the place more conducive to learning and growing as a writer.

Personally, I don't have much use for free verse, but it wouldn't occur to me dump on a fellow writer for choosing to work in it.

But if you really think it's okay, ask yourself why the traffic is so low and the turnover so high.

People who are secure in their endeavours do not feel the need to crap on other people who are taking another approach.

Thankfully, it's not this way everywhere; as a matter of fact, it like this hardly anywhere.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:01 AM
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This is merely freedom of expression.
I don't see why people have to take it as a personal attack on them when no names were even mentioned in the piece itself.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Lon Palmer View Post
It would never occur to me to write something so desperately immature and post it on a writers' site where it is some other people's preferred form.

This is a workshop, in essence, and comparing other people's work "gilded turds" hardly makes the place more conducive to learning and growing as a writer.

Personally, I don't have much use for free verse, but it wouldn't occur to me dump on a fellow writer for choosing to work in it.

But if you really think it's okay, ask yourself why the traffic is so low and the turnover so high.

People who are secure in their endeavours do not feel the need to crap on other people who are taking another approach.

Thankfully, it's not this way everywhere; as a matter of fact, it like this hardly anywhere.
I think your view on this is a little myopic. I seriously doubt that the lack of participation and turnover is about any criticism of approach. Take a good look at the overall quality and effort that people put into the poems and critiques here. You even have people admitting that they have only spent a few minutes on a poem before posting it. That's why I'm leaving.

Giving that there are so few people posting, I would say the support you've gotten more than balances out any criticism. That would be easy enough to see for anyone evaluating the site.

And based on your reaction to the poem, calling the author immature is yet another irony.

Last edited by E. Zamora; 07-25-2014 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:26 AM
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"People who are secure in their endeavours do not feel the need to crap on other people who are taking another approach."

Thus, the poetic law is laid down from on high, and anyone who disagrees is blasphemous of established academic views. Strange how those who claim to be the last word in literature are the most unbending in tolerance. I have truly tried to stay out of this spat because of previous disagreements, but this continuous repeating of stonewall positions accomplishes nothing but ill feelings on a forum intended for creative writing. If one has decided to leave in protest, don't let the door hit you in the ass. (No, I didn't create that, but I doubt that it's protected by copyright.) As far as intolerance, simply read posts by Professor Palmer of works and critiques of other writers here. Logic ends at the brick wall of parochialism.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
I think your view on this is a little myopic. I seriously doubt that the lack of participation and turnover is about any criticism of approach. Take a good look at the overall quality and effort that people put into the poems and critiques here. You even have people admitting that they have only spent a few minutes on a poem before posting it. That's why I'm leaving.

Giving that there are so few people posting, I would say the support you've gotten more than balances out any criticism. That would be easy enough to see for anyone evaluating the site.

And based on your reaction to the poem, calling the poem immature is yet another irony.
The poem comes as the culmination of many exchanges. For you to see it as a little bit of endearing satire is as myopic as you imagine me to be.

I'm not going to spend hours on a poem to have three or four people crap all over it, not because of the writing but because of the style its written in, and then see one of them write a poem on the subject and use it to start a thread. That's bordering, if not crossing the line into, abusive. Obviously, I'm going to find a better place to workshop my stuff. Who wouldn't?

The reason that traffic is so low here is because there are too many bitter writers, like you and Matt and a third person who has not yet entered this thread and so shall remain nameless, at least for the present, who try to deal with their own insecurities by dumping on others - and not just people like me who write in styles you disapprove of. The people who will put up with that kind of nonsense are mostly people who have been here for a long time, and newbies, a large percentage of whom put very little effort into their writing and will not hang around very long.

Other sites are not like this because the mods won't allow your behaviour - and here I refer again to the three of you. Some of them are thriving, and I'm glad that I've found one.

You and people like you have made this place what it is, and the lack of moderation has enabled you to do so. Now it doesn't suit you, so you crap all over it, not just me and what you see as my antiquated writing, but most of the people here - you and Matt, anyway. They won't miss you, and I won't even notice. ;-)

You're like locusts who eat everything in sight, and then have the nerve to say, "What a crummy place: there's nothing to eat."

Last edited by Lon Palmer; 07-25-2014 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 07-25-2014, 12:14 PM
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Funny poem.
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Old 07-25-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Lon Palmer View Post
The reason that traffic is so low here is because there are too many bitter writers, like you and Matt and a third person who has not yet entered this thread and so shall remain nameless, at least for the present, who try to deal with their own insecurities by dumping on others - and not just people like me who write in styles you disapprove of.
That is just really bad amateur psychology. I'm not in the least bitter or insecure. It's rather pathetic and hypocritical when someone is compelled to take a discussion about poetry and turn it into personal attacks like this.

And the idea that JoeMatt and someone who rarely even visits the site or I have the power to affect traffic here to that extent boarders on delusional. But I can certainly see why it's important for you to think so. And I'll just leave it at that.

Ciao.
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Old 07-25-2014, 12:53 PM
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And that's the pronouncement of a senior moderator on this bullshit?
Yes, I moderate, but that doesn't make me a "yoda" in all things writing related.

I say have a little fun with the piece if you want. It's all part of learning. Learn what makes an audience laugh, cry, bitch-and-moan, cover their eyes and squirm in their seats.

Perhaps I look at things in a slightly different perspective than some.
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:45 PM
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Then I guess I'm on the wrong site.

I prefer a place where the writers try to help each other irrespective of style. Thankfully I have found such a place and made it my new home.

Here, whenever I post something "archaic", I can count on being told that it's shit. I've never encountered anything like it anywhere and hope never to again.

Oh, and S1 - 4 is not bad - "gilded turd" is my favourite - but S5 becomes metrically clumsy and the "punchline" in S6 revolves around a logical fallacy, equating one form of "free" to another, nonequivalent "free". Artifice without substance. A trick pool shot.

Happy writing, everyone.

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Old 07-25-2014, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lon Palmer View Post
Oh, and S1 - 4 is not bad - "gilded turd" is my favourite - but S5 becomes metrically clumsy and the "punchline" in S6 revolves around a logical fallacy, equating one form of "free" to another, nonequivalent "free".
It's perfectly smooth, rolls right off the tongue, and the last line is clearly a play on words; of course they don't literally equate. Geez.

P.S. I think it's great you went out on a note the shows you being utterly obtuse. Yea, Lon!

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Old 07-25-2014, 04:26 PM
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Good night, good night! Parting is such sweet sorrow

















Happy days are here again,
The skies above are clear again
Let us sing a song of cheer again
Happy days are here again,
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Old 07-27-2014, 02:54 AM
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It can't be done
William J Bennett

The man who misses all the fun
Is he who says "It can't be done."
In solemn pride he stands aloof
And greets each venture with reproof.
Had he the power he'd efface
The history of the human race;
We'd have no radio or motorcars,
No streets lit by electric stars;
No telegraph or telephone
We'd linger in the age of stone.
The world would sleep if things were run
By men who say "It can't be done."

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Old 07-27-2014, 09:40 AM
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Of course it can be done.

That poem is about moving forward and trying new things, so it’s actually more in line with the O.P.
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