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Disparity in outcome

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  #91  
Old 07-21-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
In STEM areas women and men are at a ratio of 1 to 1 up until early career but then at a professorial or top-level STEM industry position this is not the same ratio. This is what I am stating, the early career, PhD and undergraduate numbers demonstrate that the ability of women in these areas are very similar to men, and indeed the relative absence of women in these areas at the top level demonstrate (prove even) that we do not have the most talented people at the top of these industries. If we did, the ratio would unequivocally be 1:1 (alternatively this means that we have a population of "less-talented" men in these positions that could be better filled by "more-talented" women)**.

If we can agree that there is no biological basis to this disparity of outcome, and we can agree that there is no talent basis to this disparity of outcome, we are only left with a societal/cultural construct of some kind that is impeding women from getting these positions. Unfortunately, for women, one factor (there may be a multitude of other factors) is some people believe that women (in comparison to men) do not have the capacity or talent to succeed in these areas and therefore one factor leading to this outcome is sexism.
It's possible. I don't see it as unequivocal proof however, and I'm not just saying that to be contrarian or whatever. Because if it was that clear cut there wouldn't be the possibility for a 'multitude of other factors' and who's to say which of these factors is more potent than the rest? Could men be more attuned to competing aggressively for positions of authority? (as much as people might scoff at this idea it's difficult to look nature dead in the face and deny it)

And here's another thing that they say... women are smarter than men on average. But the male distribution of intelligence is much more extreme, ie: we have more stone cold retards as well as more stone cold geniuses than our female counterparts. This might go someway to explaining why we seem to be responsible for a lot of the dumbest shit in the world as well as occupy a higher ratio of top positions.

Declaimer: I don't know the answer... this is only to say that the sexism explanation isn't the only one and I think it's a mistake that we're continually making to assume that it is.

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  #92  
Old 07-21-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnConstantine View Post
It's possible. I don't see it as unequivocal proof however, and I'm not just saying that to be contrarian or whatever. Because if it was that clear cut there wouldn't be the possibility for a 'multitude of other factors' and who's to say which of these factors is more potent than the rest? Could men be more attuned to competing aggressively for positions of authority? (as much as people might scoff at this idea it's difficult to look nature dead in the face and deny it)

And here's another thing that they say... women are smarter than men on average. But the male distribution of intelligence is much more extreme, ie: we have more stone cold retards as well as more stone cold geniuses than our female counterparts. This might go someway to explaining why we seem to be responsible for a lot of the dumbest shit in the world as well as occupy a higher ratio of top positions.

Declaimer: I don't know the answer... this is only to say that the sexism explanation isn't the only one and I think it's a mistake that we're continually making to assume that it is.
Yes, and it is important to note that I'm not stating sexism is the only factor as well but that it definitely plays a major part.

To your post, your second paragraph is another way of stating boys are smarter than girls (and boys are dumber than girls) but this does not account for the equal numbers at undergraduate, PhD and early career, there should always be more men.

With regards to your first paragraph, the people on the top are not on average more competitive than people at the bottom in a fair game competitive sense, they are there as most other people are born into check mate. The structure and social and cultural perceptions keep them there. It would be the same case if women were on top.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:59 PM
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Incidentally, it is this latter point that is the other reason I gave before as to why the outcome is the way it is.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:09 PM
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I think it's still the baby thing. This causes a pause or delay in upward mobility with that age group. This lag leads to an institutionalized feeling that men are a solid line and women have a few dots at the most critical time for career launch.
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Old 07-21-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I think it's still the baby thing. This causes a pause or delay in upward mobility with that age group. This lag leads to an institutionalized feeling that men are a solid line and women have a few dots at the most critical time for career launch.
Perhaps, but I suppose another tact is in order here, suppose we remove women (except for where they are in a position of being a professor to be fair) and look at the average age of a professor (55) and the average age of start of tenure (39) and that apparently ~75% of tenured academics plan on retiring after the age of 65. If we can extrapolate these figures to the STEM discipline, which I believe is a reasonable assumption, then the most "talented" STEM researchers (based on their pay scale) are mostly old men, who are mostly white. Which also means that young men of any colour, regardless of their inability to make babies are not as talented.
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I think it's still the baby thing. This causes a pause or delay in upward mobility with that age group. This lag leads to an institutionalized feeling that men are a solid line and women have a few dots at the most critical time for career launch.
This is something I talk about in secret with my male friends and colleagues -- it's more than just a few dots -- post-children, there is often a pretty drastic shift in attitudes and priorities that you rarely see in men.

And I ask, why don't more women insist that men take a more active role -- including making little sacrifices like leaving work if a child gets sick?

I'm thinking it's because they really don't want them to...
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