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  #31  
Old 08-28-2018, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
You and Proddy have made this distinction between legal and illegal immigrants, but I don’t do that. I know plenty of Mexicans that don’t have papers, but their children and grand children are magnitudes more American than they are. Almost every Mexican American I know has a “Nana” or “Pappi” who is or was an illegal immigrant (well, Reagan gave amnesty, so many of them are now legal). My point was and is that it doesn’t matter if you come here illegally if you put your kid in our schools (culture). They turn American. It’s a testament to the greatness of American society/culture. Each successive generation becomes more American. So, three generations down the road there is no divide between us and them.
Yes, this happens when a family wants to be American. Not all do. Like I said, there are some who want nothing to do with America - they want to return this land to Mexico, and they proudly resist being Americanized.

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
This whole xenophobic idea about people from elsewhere seems to me to be more a product of our own economic failures of late, than a legitimate concern.
There you go using a word that is so overused, to mean the wrong thing, as to completely vacate it of all meaning. Xenophobia refers to fear, or hatred, or prejudice, for no other reason than that someone is a stranger.

Point out that there is a problem with some illegals being deported over and over again, or never being deported at all, even though they're here illegally and continually commit crimes, and you'll be accused of saying ALL immigrants are criminals, and called a xenophobe.

There is a problem with some immigrants who see this as a different kind of land of opportunity, one where you can take what you want and suffer no consequences. Sure, there are American citizens who think the same way, but we're not talking about them here, are we? We can have a separate discussion about the prisons being overloaded because of the failed war on drugs, causing crime to go up because criminals know they won't be held long, but we can't not have this discussion just because we're not having that one at the same time.

It's like I try to tell the kids (or anyone else who will listen): Our job as men is to be the best that we can be, no matter what the circumstances. You don't look around for the lowest common denominator and say, "They're doing it - why shouldn't I?" You look for the highest example, and use that as a guide.

Not addressing the problems with illegal immigration just because there are other things that are problems, too, just sinks us farther into the quagmire. If it's prejudicial, or xenophobic, or racist to talk about issues openly, without reverting to misplaced accusations of prejudice, or xenophobia, or racism, then what the hell is it all about? Free thinking is part of what made us what we are. To shut that down by misusing appellations can only make us all dumber.

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Old 08-29-2018, 03:11 AM
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Hey, if a word is "overused" the condition just goes away. Pretty cool!
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:14 AM
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My concern is the psychology and the messaging currently being used to sell the policies or what needs to be done to address the "problems." It's heavy-handed and simplistic, based on exaggeration and designed to appeal to people's worst instincts and prejudices. (That's not to say some of the reactions to it haven't been exaggerated or even hysterical.) And it's only going to get worse.

For example, a candidate for Governor of Georgia, the guy who won put out a TV ad where he said, "I got a big truck, just in case I need to round up criminal illegals and take 'em home myself."

Here's another still from another candidates ad's:




Plenty of liberal outrage over this, but pretty much zero concern from conservatives, and plenty of people on social media who thought it was great! These pretty much say everything about what's wrong with the messaging on the subject and the effect it's having on people. It's nauseating.

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Old 08-29-2018, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
Yes, this happens when a family wants to be American. Not all do. Like I said, there are some who want nothing to do with America - they want to return this land to Mexico, and they proudly resist being Americanized.

.

I think I read about one of those California groups that wants the place to be its own country, and they were largely Hispanic, and maybe that’s what you’re talking about, otherwise I’ve never seen Mexicans do this. I’ve lived and worked with them for decades. I’m not saying there aren’t any that do what you say, just that it’s hard to believe the numbers would be anywhere near statistically relevant.

What is relevant and true, is that the economy never recovered after the recession of 2008. The stock market continues to go up, but the average joe’s wages are not keeping pace with higher medical insurance prices, housing and rents, and inflation in general (even though its statistically low), and this puts downward pressure on low and middle income families. That is often a primary cause of xenophobia (the word actually has quite a dynamic set of definitions), which is a political word, yes, but I think relevant (maybe not for you) in these times.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
...It's heavy-handed and simplistic, based on exaggeration and designed to appeal to people's worst instincts and prejudices. (That's not to say some of the reactions to it haven't been exaggerated or even hysterical.) And it's only going to get worse.
Which is a shame, because I enjoy a good conversation where the people I'm talking to have ideas of their own, and can express them without being branded some sort of -phobe, or -ist.

Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
...a candidate for Governor of Georgia, the guy who won put out a TV ad where he said, "I got a big truck, just in case I need to round up criminal illegals and take 'em home myself."
...and everyone's so hair-triggered over this issue, no one even noticed that he said, "...criminal illegals...". Not hard working family types just trying to build a good life, but criminal illegals. That's "criminal," and, "illegal." Criminal illegal. And yet he'll be branded a racist, even though he's not grouping anyone by race, but by activity: Criminal. Illegal.

It's funny, no one would want to feed, house, and clothe a criminal who entered their house illegally, with bad intent, but we're expected to accept that scenario as a nation.

Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
It's nauseating.
That's what I said.

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I think I read about one of those California groups that wants the place to be its own country, and they were largely Hispanic, and maybe that’s what you’re talking about, otherwise I’ve never seen Mexicans do this. I’ve lived and worked with them for decades. I’m not saying there aren’t any that do what you say, just that it’s hard to believe the numbers would be anywhere near statistically relevant.

What is relevant and true, is that the economy never recovered after the recession of 2008. The stock market continues to go up, but the average joe’s wages are not keeping pace with higher medical insurance prices, housing and rents, and inflation in general (even though its statistically low), and this puts downward pressure on low and middle income families. That is often a primary cause of xenophobia (the word actually has quite a dynamic set of definitions), which is a political word, yes, but I think relevant (maybe not for you) in these times.
The Mexicans I worked and drank with in West Texas and San Diego are, for the most part, as you say. I don't know how many up here are reconquistadors, and I may be more sensitive to the signs of it, after seeing so much of those old men's visions come true.

Kind of eerie, actually. Makes me wonder how far they'll actually be able to take it, or if it will die on the vine as they become Americanized by osmosis. Meanwhile, I don't worry about it too much. My Mexican friends don't seem to be plotting to truss me up and ship me back to the "white" part of the country anytime soon, and I'm not going to call ICE on their Uncle Joe, unless he tries to do a home invasion on me, in which case he and I would have some issues.

But it wouldn't be because of race.
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Old 08-30-2018, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
...and everyone's so hair-triggered over this issue, no one even noticed that he said, "...criminal illegals...". Not hard working family types just trying to build a good life, but criminal illegals. That's "criminal," and, "illegal." Criminal illegal. And yet he'll be branded a racist, even though he's not grouping anyone by race, but by activity: Criminal. Illegal.

It's funny, no one would want to feed, house, and clothe a criminal who entered their house illegally, with bad intent, but we're expected to accept that scenario as a nation..
I think you're pretty much missing the point here, and that's the absurdity of some guy standing next to a truck saying he'll round up the illegals himself or that someone actually painted a bus and covered it with alarmist nonsense designed to make people afraid. (Which you didn't mention.)

The entire purpose is to go out of your way to NOT associate illegal aliens with "hard working family types just trying to build a good life." That used to be part of the conversation prior to the Trump era, but taking their cues from him, any mention of that would be perceived as being soft on immigration.

Those people are part of the equation as far how they could be an asset to our economy and of course, there's the whole issue of their safety and how they're being exploited. If you think that goes without saying, I think you are greatly overestimating the majority of the intended audience.

This kind of simplistic messaging and rhetoric lowers the bar and creates the environment where the reasonable conversation you say you want is all but impossible. It's all designed to pander and divide. Yet, here you are, saying there's really no problem with it.

P.S. I realize how people overreacting to this kind of thing is part of the problem, but it doesn't make it any less disturbing.

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Old 08-30-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
I think you're pretty much missing the point here, and that's the absurdity of some guy standing next to a truck saying he'll round up the illegals himself or that someone actually painted a bus and covered it with alarmist nonsense designed to make people afraid. (Which you didn't mention.)
Of course it's absurd to think he'd be doing that himself, but people will say anything to get elected. I'd say, if he's got enough people willing to go along with it, who will vote for him, then that's democracy. It ain't perfect, but it's what we've got, and if you don't like the outcome, the best you can do is to get enough people who think like you to vote.

I realize a difference in locale and circumstances can lead people to not understand each other, and I apologize if I seem obtuse, but wouldn't the only people who would be alarmed or made afraid (assuming they actually believe this shit) be the people listed on the back of the bus?

Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
The entire purpose is to go out of your way to NOT associate illegal aliens with "hard working family types just trying to build a good life." That used to be part of the conversation prior to the Trump era, but taking their cues from him, any mention of that would be perceived as being soft on immigration.
I thought it was the opposite - that the erroneous claim that Trump was talking about all immigrants when he was talking about illegal immigrants who commit crimes had focused enough attention on the subject to bring enlightenment to most people.

But some people will hammer a belief into the ground and jump on it, rather than admit they could be wrong.


Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
Those people are part of the equation as far how they could be an asset to our economy and of course, there's the whole issue of their safety and how they're being exploited. If you think that goes without saying, I think you are greatly overestimating the majority of the intended audience.
Unfortunately, I think that expecting anything rational out of most people is overestimating them.

Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
This kind of simplistic messaging and rhetoric lowers the bar and creates the environment where the reasonable conversation you say you want is all but impossible. It's all designed to pander and divide. Yet, here you are, saying there's really no problem with it.
I think the problem with it is when people take it seriously, and try to make something of it that it isn't. I agree with you in seeing that bus as nonsense, but who could seriously be alarmed or made afraid by it, except those people listed? I think there is more simplistic messaging and rhetoric in the claims that Trump was talking about all immigrants, when he wasn't; or when policies which have been in effect for years are laid at Trump's doorstep, as if he personally invented them and stood by with a whip to make sure they were implemented.

Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
P.S. I realize how people overreacting to this kind of thing is part of the problem, but it doesn't make it any less disturbing.
It should. A blowhard making outrageous claims in a bid to win votes is easy to ignore. Thousands of people blowing it up to outrageous proportions can only bring more attention to it, and hysterical reactions can only drive people into the opposing camp.
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Old 08-31-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post
I agree with you in seeing that bus as nonsense, but who could seriously be alarmed or made afraid by it, except those people listed?
Fear mongering; it's the oldest tactic in the book to gain and hold onto political power. If the ads and all the rhetoric didn't make people afraid, it wouldn't be effective, and the one who most recently stumbled on it, the guy everyone is now copying is now the President of the United States. So, yes, it's working! Doesn't necessarily mean the point behind the message is all wrong either. It's just that it's a shame that the bar is now this low.

Originally Posted by Prodigalson View Post

Unfortunately, I think that expecting anything rational out of most people is overestimating them.
Yes. And that's precisely why this sort of messaging works and why people on the other side overreact to it. Two sides of the SAME coin. And as long it has the desired effect, the dumber it's going to get.

And on this last most salient note of yours, I will bow out.

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Old 08-31-2018, 11:13 AM
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Old 08-31-2018, 01:01 PM
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And then Trump Junior says liberals are downplaying Mollie Tibbet's murder because it gets in the way of their "open border" agenda.

"Oh no! The liberals want OPEN BORDERS! The rapists and murderers will be pouring into the country in droves!"

See how that works? This idiocy is a bipartisan condition.
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Old 08-31-2018, 03:05 PM
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Breitbart? Why not the article on the Daily Stormer website? Oh yeah, they are having trouble finding a host beyond the dark web recently.

Sorry, but quoting a Breitbart article with no qualifying commentary is childish and irresponsible.
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:24 PM
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The message has changed. It used to be about jobs and economics -- but that was boring and it didn't cut through, so a lot of the messaging has shifted to fears about personal safety. I think Trump mostly stumbled on this by accident in his announcement to run for president.

As tragic as the Mollie Tibbets case is, it's about something that is statistically insignificant. (I know, you wouldn't say it was statistically insignificant if it was your wife or daughter!)

The realty is, there's a subset of psychopaths in ANY population. Ginning up fear for political advantage based on these few cases is the worst kind of pandering. But right here we see how people can fall for it...

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Old 08-31-2018, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
The message has changed. It used to be about jobs and economics -- but that was boring and it didn't cut through, so a lot of the messaging has shifted to fears about personal safety. I think Trump mostly stumbled on this by accident in his announcement to run for president. As tragic as the Mollie Tibbets case is, it's about something that is statistically insignificant. (I know, you wouldn't say it was statistically insignificant if it was your wife or daughter!) The realty is, there's subset of psychopaths in ANY population. Ginning up fear for political advantage based on these few cases is the worst kind of pandering. But right here we see how people can fall for it...


I agree, but I also think it’s actually about jobs and economics still. When people are threatened this stuff works on them. Take away the bad job market and give us the boom of the nineties, and most of this would disappear overnight.
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:04 PM
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Article: Tibbetts murder exploited by racist group in creepy robocall:

https://nypost.com/2018/08/30/tibbet...eepy-robocall/

"But that's the extreme!!!"

Too bad people just can't use their brains...
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:06 PM
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I think a HUGE part of the problem today is that people tend to grossly overestimate the intelligence of people on THEIR side...

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Old 08-31-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I agree, but I also think it’s actually about jobs and economics still. When people are threatened this stuff works on them. Take away the bad job market and give us the boom of the nineties, and most of this would disappear overnight.
The funny thing is, the economy was on the rebound, unemployment was going down and so was illegal immigration. But that didn't matter to Trump or people who latched on to his message about rapists and murderers.

Of course, the left's sole tactic at this point is reacting to Trump and not saying anything to address immigration beyond that...

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Old 08-31-2018, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Breitbart? Why not the article on the Daily Stormer website? Oh yeah, they are having trouble finding a host beyond the dark web recently.

Sorry, but quoting a Breitbart article with no qualifying commentary is childish and irresponsible.
And of course, the people who post articles from Breitbart are the same people who would balk if you posted something from the Huffinton post...
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Old 08-31-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
The funny thing is, the economy was on the rebound, unemployment was going down and so was illegal immigration. But that didn't matter to Trump or people who latched on to his message about rapists and murderers.



Of course, the left's sole tactic at this point is reacting to Trump and not saying anything to address immigration beyond that.



So yeah, it's amazing to me how people who are locked into a particularly ideology and the the corresponding taking points are incapable of being the least objective. Par for the course, I guess.


I’m coming from the point of view that unemployment went down because a lot of people stopped looking for jobs or were “underemployed,” and still are.

All the fast food restaurants near my house are staffed with a large percentage of old people—people who shouldn’t have to be working, but have to anyway—used to be a bunch of kids working there.

The stock market goes up, but wages don’t. They go down.

I don’t think the economy ever rebounded actually. I think this is a bubble based on stock market speculation and the Fed will soon start lowering criteria for home buyer applicants so they can prop up the bubble as long as possible. When it crashes it will be brutal for a lot of people.
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
I’m coming from the point of view that unemployment went down because a lot of people stopped looking for jobs or were “underemployed,” and still are.

All the fast food restaurants near my house are staffed with a large percentage of old people—people who shouldn’t have to be working, but have to anyway—used to be a bunch of kids working there.

The stock market goes up, but wages don’t. They go down.

I don’t think the economy ever rebounded actually. I think this is a bubble based on stock market speculation and the Fed will soon start lowering criteria for home buyer applicants so they can prop up the bubble as long as possible. When it crashes it will be brutal for a lot of people.
I think it was on the rebound marginally. It had nowhere to go but up. If you look at the stats from the dept. of labor, the people going back into the job market who had previously stopped looking has gone up some since 2016, but just a little bit.

But you're right, it's way different now. A large segment of the population, namely older people who lost their jobs and a lot of money in their IRA's etc., they're not going to recover, regardless of how the market performs. It's too late for them.

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Old 08-31-2018, 06:19 PM
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And I look at the so-called real estate boom in my area; a bunch of cookie cutter apartments and condos and office buildings, and a lot of them are already struggling to find tenants.

The biggest bust so far are the so called "live, work, play" communities. Even the new ones can't find retail tenants beside restaurants and nail and tanning places. Not exactly the formula for longevity.

Someone is making a lot of money up front with no regard as to how all this is going to pan out. Can't help but think the bubble is going to burst all over again.

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Old 09-03-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Zamora View Post
And I look at the so-called real estate boom in my area; a bunch of cookie cutter apartments and condos and office buildings, and a lot of them are already struggling to find tenants.

The biggest bust so far are the so called "live, work, play" communities. Even the new ones can't find retail tenants beside restaurants and nail and tanning places. Not exactly the formula for longevity.

Someone is making a lot of money up front with no regard as to how all this is going to pan out. Can't help but think the bubble is going to burst all over again.
It is all a Ponzi scheme. Anyone who thinks it is a level playing field is a moron. Crony Corporatism is the enemy and our current system of government enables it.

Ahem, that is my speechifying for the day.
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Old 09-03-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Chinspinner View Post
It is all a Ponzi scheme. Anyone who thinks it is a level playing field is a moron. Crony Corporatism is the enemy and our current system of government enables it.



Ahem, that is my speechifying for the day.


Yeah. Real estate bubble, pumped up as big as it could go, then popped, millions lose their houses, sold back to investors for cents on the dollar—turned into rentals for all those homeowners who now don’t own homes. A few eager beavers get tax breaks to build apartments and live work play buildings (all rentals mind you), and it’s the biggest private grab of public money since the 9-11 attacks.

It’s a good game they got going.

Eventually, like you say, the serfs will get restless and bust a move.
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Old 09-03-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Yeah. Real estate bubble, pumped up as big as it could go, then popped, millions lose their houses, sold back to investors for cents on the dollar—turned into rentals for all those homeowners who now don’t own homes. A few eager beavers get tax breaks to build apartments and live work play buildings (all rentals mind you), and it’s the biggest private grab of public money since the 9-11 attacks.

It’s a good game they got going.

Eventually, like you say, the serfs will get restless and bust a move.
We are in the Age of Decadence as identified by Sir John Glub 200 years ago. History repeats..
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