WritersBeat.com
 

Go Back   WritersBeat.com > General Discussion > The Intellectual Table

The Intellectual Table Discussions on political topics, social issues, current affairs, etc.


does sin make religion?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 10-08-2016, 02:46 PM
Nacia's Avatar
Nacia (Online)
Legend
Official Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London, England.
Posts: 9,755
Thanks: 2,334
Thanks 894
Icon3 does sin make religion?


in other words without sin there could be no religion.

__________________
a lesson in
life is a pound
in sound
it reminds us
it is expensive a fine
so bear one
in mind

Last edited by Nacia; 10-08-2016 at 03:56 PM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Nacia For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-08-2016)
  #2  
Old 10-08-2016, 03:50 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
in other words with sin there could be no religion.
Good question, or could the opposite be true? That without religion there could be no sin?
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PickleBottom For This Useful Post:
Nacia (10-08-2016)
  #3  
Old 10-09-2016, 03:40 PM
Cityboy (Offline)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,613
Thanks: 32
Thanks 176
Default

Originally Posted by PickleBottom View Post
Good question, or could the opposite be true? That without religion there could be no sin?
Law enforcement calls wrongdoing a crime. Without people there could be no sin or whatever one chooses to call it.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-09-2016, 07:22 PM
wrc (Offline)
Scribbling Master
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 997
Thanks: 0
Thanks 230
Default

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Law enforcement calls wrongdoing a crime. Without people there could be no sin or whatever one chooses to call it.
Hi Cityboy. I agree that law ennforcement calls wrongdoging a crime. But your next statement threw me.

"Without people there could be no sin or whatever one chooses to call it."

I can't figure out what your saying. Without people there would be no thinking of a reflective nature. No language. No words.

The concept of sin is a theological idea. It's a value judgement. And while most people would agree that certain acts are sinful, we pass laws and punish certain behavior and acts. Not because they are a sin but because they are 'wrongdoing' (your word).

Ok. I give up. I can't figure out what you're getting at. Sorry. wrc
__________________

You're not dead 'til you're dead and when you are you won't know it. So, keep on writing and having fun.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wrc For This Useful Post:
Nacia (10-10-2016)
  #5  
Old 10-09-2016, 09:51 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Law enforcement calls wrongdoing a crime. Without people there could be no sin or whatever one chooses to call it.
So people define what sin is... are you sure that is what you want to state here, or would you be better off stating that God defines what a sin is?
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PickleBottom For This Useful Post:
Nacia (10-10-2016)
  #6  
Old 10-10-2016, 05:51 AM
Nacia's Avatar
Nacia (Online)
Legend
Official Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London, England.
Posts: 9,755
Thanks: 2,334
Thanks 894
Default

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Law enforcement calls wrongdoing a crime. Without people there could be no sin or whatever one chooses to call it.
hello Cityboy
is there a difference between a crime and a sin?
without people there could be no law nor religion although i do see nodifference
between the two latters.
law is a religion.
if there were no crime there would be no law and i think the same applies for sin.
if people conducted themselves decently there would no law nor religion and I
think one should work on that because it is challenging and also a greater achievement as a whole.
__________________
a lesson in
life is a pound
in sound
it reminds us
it is expensive a fine
so bear one
in mind
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-10-2016, 09:10 AM
Cityboy (Offline)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,613
Thanks: 32
Thanks 176
Default

Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
hello Cityboy
is there a difference between a crime and a sin?
without people there could be no law nor religion although i do see nodifference
between the two latters.
law is a religion.
if there were no crime there would be no law and i think the same applies for sin.
if people conducted themselves decently there would no law nor religion and I
think one should work on that because it is challenging and also a greater achievement as a whole.
Without human beings there would be nobody to name a jackass a monkey or a monkey a jackass. Although the animals themselves would know the difference, it would just be they (or other things such as plants)
wouldn't have been defined by the human mind.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-10-2016, 05:04 PM
wrc (Offline)
Scribbling Master
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 997
Thanks: 0
Thanks 230
Default

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Without human beings there would be nobody to name a jackass a monkey or a monkey a jackass. Although the animals themselves would know the difference, it would just be they (or other things such as plants)
wouldn't have been defined by the human mind.
FINALLY! You said something I can agree with, Cityboy. Human beings invented language, words and everything else in our minds. You forgot to mention the big bang. You also forgot to mention god and the various religions we invented.

I was about to give up on you but I've changed my mind. Let's all give three cheers for Cityboy!

wrc
__________________

You're not dead 'til you're dead and when you are you won't know it. So, keep on writing and having fun.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-10-2016, 08:05 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Online)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,731
Thanks: 393
Thanks 1,011
Default

Hip hip hooray!

Hip hip hooray!

Hip hip hooray!

Although both of you gents seem to think that animals can't think or talk (communicate). That's rather speciesist don't you think? Just because my cat doesn't speak English doesn't mean he doesn't have deep thoughts, prejudices, or communication with other cats (at least).
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-11-2016, 09:22 AM
wrc (Offline)
Scribbling Master
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 997
Thanks: 0
Thanks 230
Default

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Although both of you gents seem to think that animals can't think or talk (communicate). That's rather speciesist don't you think? Just because my cat doesn't speak English doesn't mean he doesn't have deep thoughts, prejudices, or communication with other cats (at least).
Howdy brianpatrick.

I don't know about the other gent, but you've made a mistake with me.

My entire life has been spent in the company of pets. I love them and the love they return. Most pets don't live out their life span because this world is not friendly for them. Autos kill a vast number. Which means there's also been a lot of grieving in my life.

Right now, I'm pet less and I really miss it. It's one of the reasons we've decided to move and are now searching for new digs.

Language appears dependent on brain size. The amount of neurons creates, for us, our language. But animals communicate with each other and with us. I've never felt I was lied to by the many pets I've lived with.

I can't say the same for humans with an expanded language. There is so much bullshit generated by many humans because they learn the words to concoct the BS.

The minute we move Iím getting a pet (dog or cat, or both) to live out their life with me.

wrc
__________________

You're not dead 'til you're dead and when you are you won't know it. So, keep on writing and having fun.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-11-2016, 09:32 AM
ChoosyBeggar (Offline)
Pencil pusher
Official Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 15
Thanks: 0
Thanks 2
Default

Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
in other words without sin there could be no religion.
Organized religion is, in addition to other things, an analytics system for classifying and quantifying human action. "Sin" is simply one of the various labels for a set of societal condemnations, similar to the laws of a nation or even the rules of a game. Obviously the rhetoric and connotations are different, but at their core they serve the same purpose.

"There are no villains; only enemies."
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ChoosyBeggar For This Useful Post:
Nacia (10-12-2016)
  #12  
Old 10-11-2016, 03:40 PM
Cityboy (Offline)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,613
Thanks: 32
Thanks 176
Default

Originally Posted by wrc View Post
FINALLY! You said something I can agree with, Cityboy. Human beings invented language, words and everything else in our minds. You forgot to mention the big bang. You also forgot to mention god and the various religions we invented.

I was about to give up on you but I've changed my mind. Let's all give three cheers for Cityboy!

wrc
Human beings didn't invent squat. They are products of nature just as dinosaurs were and flies are. You're not really that stupid to believe only human beings have a language--so do animals and probably plants.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-12-2016, 07:27 AM
wyf's Avatar
wyf (Offline)
Homer's Odyssey Was Nothing
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: UK, bottom half
Posts: 1,097
Thanks: 135
Thanks 125
Default

Originally Posted by Nacia View Post
in other words without sin there could be no religion.
Sin is the stuff that religions disapprove of.

Original sin is an abomination invented by catholics.
__________________
How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself. ~ Anais Nin
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wyf For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-12-2016)
  #14  
Old 10-12-2016, 12:10 PM
Myers (Offline)
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,224
Thanks: 382
Thanks 403
Default

Yeah, I need to be more creative when I sin, because none of mine are very original.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Myers For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-12-2016)
  #15  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:06 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,063
Thanks: 364
Thanks 688
Default

To have a religion you need a deity to believe in. Right/wrong is a component in many religions, but sin doesn't "make" a religion.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mohican For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-14-2016)
  #16  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:35 AM
wrc (Offline)
Scribbling Master
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 997
Thanks: 0
Thanks 230
Default

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Human beings didn't invent squat. They are products of nature just as dinosaurs were and flies are. You're not really that stupid to believe only human beings have a language--so do animals and probably plants.
Cityboy.

The increase in brain size is what allowed language to develop. Human beings invented language. Animals communicate with each other but not with words. Human beings, using language, also invented god, and all the religions. I thought we were on the same page here. I guess not. wrc
__________________

You're not dead 'til you're dead and when you are you won't know it. So, keep on writing and having fun.

Last edited by wrc; 10-14-2016 at 08:39 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-14-2016, 08:50 AM
Mohican's Avatar
Mohican (Offline)
Tall Poppy
Administration
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Not quite back of beyond
Posts: 4,063
Thanks: 364
Thanks 688
Default

I wonder, if the evolutionary leap from monkey to ape to human happened, is it still occurring? Are Monkeys still evolving?

In the time since Darwin, have scientists observed and recorded any current monkey species developing human traits?

On the flip side, Humans do invent. To say that Humans are just a product of nature is silly. Humans invent and adapt to the environment or on occasion adapt the environment to them.
__________________
If you surrender a civilization to avoid social disapproval, you should know that all of history will curse you for your cowardliness - Alice Teller

If John of Patmos would browse the internet today for half an hour, I don't know if the Book of Revelations would be entirely different or entirely the same.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mohican For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-14-2016)
  #18  
Old 10-14-2016, 09:08 AM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Online)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,731
Thanks: 393
Thanks 1,011
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
In the time since Darwin, have scientists observed and recorded any current monkey species developing human traits?
.


It's been less than 200 years.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to brianpatrick For This Useful Post:
Myers (10-14-2016), PickleBottom (10-14-2016)
  #19  
Old 10-14-2016, 12:17 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
To have a religion you need a deity to believe in. Right/wrong is a component in many religions, but sin doesn't "make" a religion.
Not really Scientology doesn't have a deity.

For example, say I pointed to a tree outside and said, "There is a God" - what next?

What is a religion without dogma?
What is dogma without sin?
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PickleBottom For This Useful Post:
Myers (10-14-2016)
  #20  
Old 10-14-2016, 12:26 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Originally Posted by Mohican View Post
I wonder, if the evolutionary leap from monkey to ape to human happened, is it still occurring? Are Monkeys still evolving?

In the time since Darwin, have scientists observed and recorded any current monkey species developing human traits?

On the flip side, Humans do invent. To say that Humans are just a product of nature is silly. Humans invent and adapt to the environment or on occasion adapt the environment to them.
Humans are not the end product of evolution, and what would be the evolutionary advantage of monkeys to go from rooting and flinging shit at each other to having their entire population working for only a small portion of the population to enjoy?
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-14-2016, 12:29 PM
Myers (Offline)
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,224
Thanks: 382
Thanks 403
Default

Didn't Jesus die for our sins?

Seems like that pretty much makes the religion.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-14-2016, 01:00 PM
brianpatrick's Avatar
brianpatrick (Online)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,731
Thanks: 393
Thanks 1,011
Default

Originally Posted by Myers View Post
Didn't Jesus die for our sins?

Seems like that pretty much makes the religion.


Jesus died for our sins so they could be forgiven (both past and present sins). Otherwise God would have slaughtered us all... because he loves us.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-14-2016, 01:36 PM
max crash's Avatar
max crash (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: The Keep, just beyond the orbit of mars
Posts: 2,239
Thanks: 147
Thanks 404
Default

let's get back to the Darwin and a leap from monkey to human.

Darwin didn't say that he said that man evolved from an ape like creature.

now is man at the end of his evolution? I don't know. but certainly Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon have (even though all three species were on earth at the same time for 40,000 years). whether modern man was a twig of their evolutionary branch or a entirely different branch doesn't really matter.

but back to the question, sin is a invention of religion, chicken or the egg sort of deal. if there were no religion then there would be just a crime.

however I doubt that which tree you worshiped would be considered a crime.

and Brian hit the nail right on the head

max
__________________
if you're writing over your readers head - tum etiam, ut graece scribens --- the secret of success changes;the truth of failure remains constant; if you try to please everyone you will fail.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to max crash For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-14-2016)
  #24  
Old 10-14-2016, 02:00 PM
Myers (Offline)
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,224
Thanks: 382
Thanks 403
Default

Originally Posted by brianpatrick View Post
Jesus died for our sins so they could be forgiven (both past and present sins). Otherwise God would have slaughtered us all... because he loves us.
That totally makes sense.

I see the light, brother!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-14-2016, 03:39 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Originally Posted by max crash View Post
let's get back to the Darwin and a leap from monkey to human.

Darwin didn't say that he said that man evolved from an ape like creature.

now is man at the end of his evolution? I don't know. but certainly Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon have (even though all three species were on earth at the same time for 40,000 years). whether modern man was a twig of their evolutionary branch or a entirely different branch doesn't really matter.

but back to the question, sin is a invention of religion, chicken or the egg sort of deal. if there were no religion then there would be just a crime.

however I doubt that which tree you worshiped would be considered a crime.

and Brian hit the nail right on the head

max
Seeing as we are discussing evolution (and there is another thread on voting), if a group of people go up against another group of people, they are evolving their enemy (an arms race happens), and eventually a few individuals will come to the fore of the opposing group that has a strategy that outwits the former group. The directional selection is towards a worser enemy. It is better to have the directional selection towards a lesser "enemy".
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-14-2016, 04:38 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Now say if I were a world leader... aww c'mon guys I can feel you shuddering, it's just pretend... now say if I were a world leader...

And suppose I believed the major ideology of another country was in opposition or counter to my ideology, the "best" thing that could happen would be to have a large number of people fleeing from this country, I know this is a fantasy to imagine that a whole heap of people will just leave their country, but stick with me here.

I would welcome these people in with open arms, feed them, clothe them, get to know them, treat them as people, school them, give them opportunity, give them the opportunity to stay, make them an ally. Then, through attrition, the people who remained in the "opposition" country (including the leadership or the major proponents of the ideology) will be displaced or killed, the people who I invited in can then have the choice of leaving or staying in my particular country.

Of the people who choose to leave and return to rebuild the other country, with my support, and perhaps with some of my citizens who welcomed them in wanting to help rebuild or live there, a large frequency of them will be my allies and will have a similar ideology.
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw

Last edited by PickleBottom; 10-14-2016 at 04:57 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-15-2016, 05:51 AM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Also, speaking of evolution, there is a geological unconformity in this forum, if you go back before the intellectual table closed and there lies the fossil remains of several posters. Then there is an extinction event. I liken this to the K-T boundary, an asteroid smashing into Earth and killing off a whole heap of taxa. Including poor young bumhead et al. As Hunter S Thompson once said, God's own prototypes; never even considered for mass production, too weird to live.

Threads had evolved discussions over twelve pages of weirdness, with each argument starting somewhat generally until it became more specific, more shrill and more a caricature of itself upon further duplication, until finally settling as a product a person could love as a baby. We could have used syringes to extract the essence from these matured debates and injected them into other forums for a fee.

As we are still finding our feet, post-asteroid, the threads are still r- in nature and have small spikes as they are carried off into the wind to find fertile ground to seed. We are trying to grow our arguments on the still infertile unweathered basaltic substrate. But one of these days, after months of tete-a-tete, we're going to evolve an argument that can sustain itself for 20 days, with Godwin's Law and rule #34.
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-15-2016, 11:18 AM
Cityboy (Offline)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,613
Thanks: 32
Thanks 176
Default

Nature = God. From the unseen the seen manifests. Men, Bear, and fly are all products of nature, or what some call God. Darwin himself was created by God. He didn't know it when he was breathing, but he certainly knows it now. And probably wishes he could change his theories.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Cityboy For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-15-2016)
  #29  
Old 10-15-2016, 11:26 AM
Cityboy (Offline)
Still Clicking!
Official Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,613
Thanks: 32
Thanks 176
Default

When the famous English novelist, Somerset Maugham, was expiring in France, aged 91, he summoned the world-class atheist, A. J. Ayer, like a priest to his deathbed, to reassure him that there was no afterlife. Professor Ayer duly delivered the words of consolation Maugham longed to hear.


Maugham must have hated himself. You need somebody at your bedside saying, "Hey, dude, don't worry. After your last breath, it's lights out forever."

I hope people like him won't be "educating" us Pickle. Most of us love living, love our love ones. We want to share eternity with them. Even if I was an atheist, I'd long to be with my children forever.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Cityboy For This Useful Post:
PickleBottom (10-15-2016)
  #30  
Old 10-15-2016, 01:51 PM
PickleBottom's Avatar
PickleBottom (Offline)
Always Online
Official Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,034
Thanks: 1,330
Thanks 380
Default

Originally Posted by Cityboy View Post
Nature = God. From the unseen the seen manifests. Men, Bear, and fly are all products of nature, or what some call God. Darwin himself was created by God. He didn't know it when he was breathing, but he certainly knows it now. And probably wishes he could change his theories.
Just out of curiosity, is DNA real? Or is it a conspiracy theory?
__________________
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas
-George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
Reply

  WritersBeat.com > General Discussion > The Intellectual Table


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Care to Help Me Flesh Out a Plot Concept? MeganElizabeth1 Writing Help & Issues 5 11-11-2014 04:05 PM
Concept Art Christopher P Writing Help & Issues 16 10-16-2014 01:54 AM
Novel Concept - "You Are Me" Webgoji Writing Help & Issues 7 01-09-2013 08:16 AM
Living Makes Life Hard Willyblues Lyrics 1 08-26-2006 10:46 AM
[Recommend Me A Book] - Abstract / Makes you think DFischer The Library 13 03-05-2006 04:28 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:19 PM.

vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.